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Hi all,

Well first off i got my friend into reading ciaphas cain's novels and we actually started a discussion on what he was really like, the books often depict him as a being a practical(although a bit paranoid) man who's main concern is his own survival and that he'd only do certain heroic feats although reluctantly to maintain his image as the hero of the imperium(i.e gathering survivors with safety in numbers in mind instead of just hiding alone with jurgen on a planet being invaded by orkz or not turning down certain suicide missions that people expect him to lead) but my friend seems to disagree, he said that cain only seems to be pretending to be a coward who's only concerned for himself and that he actually is a selfless hero of the imperium everyone sees him as, and that he's only depicting himself in his autobiography as a coward who's main concern is keeping his own self alive as some grand final joke or something. I told him his views seem to be the same as the character amberley vales own opinions on her editorial parts on the cains novel, but he's quite adamant that cain really is a selfless hero pretending to be coward and that sandy mitchell would make it a twist revealing cain as the hero he really was in the last cain book.

Just wanted to get your opinions on this.

I always secretly wanted Jurgan to be the real "hero of the imperium" who is willing to let Cain get all the credit while he makes everything work in the background.

That said, I feel like Cain being the "only sane commissar" (i.e. actually a reasonable guy who just happens to be a gigantic magnet for all the bad luck in the galaxy) is the way I'd read the series. No justification or anything, just when I was reading it I felt like that was the author's intention.

Actually, the forward in one of the omnibusses seems to support that. The author was talking about how the Cain character wrote his own stories. All she had to do was think up some absurd situation and let Cain try to weasel his way out of it.

Sandy Mitchell is a dude, dude.

Ciaphas Cain is an extreme case of fake it till you make it. Also, for Cain survival means more than just physical survival. It includes survival of character, which provides a wealth of comic gold in the series.

To slightly sidetrack the post, I've always felt that Jurgen was doing to Cain what Cain was doing to the imperium.

It all came from a bit near the beginning of the first book, where Cain says that if you make those above you feel superior, they basically let you get away with anything. Which got me thinking that Jurgen is actually a LOT more intelligent than he makes out, and completely sees through Cain, but realises hes onto a good thing, and doesn't want to go back to normal guard life, preferring to have a cushty life with Cain with a minimum of actual effort....

The only time I think he looks like a genuine coward is in the first short story (can't remember the title, the one that begins the first omnibus). He is in a base that is attacked by tyranids and genuinely flees for his life, but ends up turning the tide by accident.

Since then the books pay lip service to him being cowardly but there's virtually nothing to back it up. He will do stuff like fling himself into battle against a World Eater solely to preserve his supposedly undeserved image as a hard nut. Amberley Vail at one point calls him one of the best swordsmen in the segmentum! Personally I'd much prefer it if the whole "he's really a wimp surviving on luck" angle was ditched, because it's clearly not true, and the portrayal of him was more as a kind of character who enjoys the finer things, and sees the failings and madness of the Imperium, but still fights for it.

I've been disappointed in the last couple of books. The humour is much more sparse – the daft puns and homages are much rarer, and the footnotes, which at least used to have some amusing information, now serve pretty much no purpose. For example, he will say something like "I shot a genestealer with a lasgun" and there will be a footnote that says something like "So evidently he had picked up a lasgun from somewhere, though he doesn't bother to mention where" - they're just pointless now and seldom add anything, even a joke, but seem to be put in just to fill the footnote quota. And tyranids as an adversary are getting to be overused, especially genestealers. I wouldn't want to see these books jump the shark (or jump the genestealer, perhaps).

That said, the books up to and including The Emperor's Finest are much better, so really that's the vast majority. The books where the foe isn't just tyranids are IMO the best of the lot. I just think the series needs some new idea.

I consider him to be the 'reasonable marine' version of a commissar. I think to see him as the Imperium sees him would be akin to that one female IG who later becomes a General (and whose writing Inquistor Vail dislikes so much). She talks about Cain as always the first into the fray and defending the dogma/faith for all to see! We and he see it as common sense like don't shoot the rank and file when there are more useful punishments available. Save others to line up a good defense/plan because you're not doing it alone. Granted I've only read the two omnibuses but it snowballs that he keeps surviving and with many of the same people to create this insane image. Then he has to continue doing the same thing or be called out on it.

I also agree about Jurgen being smarter than Cain gives him credit. I think it's more the effects of who Jurgen is then any actual lack of ability. Always the MM, he knew about snap firing than 6th ed

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Ciaphas Cain is an extreme case of fake it till you make it.

That's because he's based off of George Macdonald Fraser's Harry Flashman, but in the 41st millennium. Flashman gained all of his titles, fame, fortune and so on through being a poltroon, a coward, a liar, a randy bugger and having a talent for getting himself into greater levels of danger through his cowardly behaviour. He's also quite vindictive and is devoid of morals, ready to shop anyone for his own survival and is not above grovelling to anyone for his life. However few people believe him to be a coward because he's 'big, bluff 'Flash' Harry' - he's tall, broad shouldered, good looking and when he panics his face goes red, which makes people think he's full of righteous fury. Cracking books, well worth reading.

I kind of assumed it was a bit of both.

He is ultimately selfish and a coward but he does care about the Imperium (in a way) he does actually care about his men (not strangers per say but his men) and he would be willing to sacrifice his life if it meant the difference of the lives of a lot of fellow humans

 Troike wrote:
Sandy Mitchell is a dude, dude.

Really? I did not know. I've never actually met someone with that name, but it sounded female to me so that's what I assumed. Thanks for correcting me.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Troike wrote:
Sandy Mitchell is a dude, dude.

Really? I did not know. I've never actually met someone with that name, but it sounded female to me so that's what I assumed. Thanks for correcting me.

Ya I hate the name Sandy. I made the same mistake for a while

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Troike wrote:
Sandy Mitchell is a dude, dude.

Really? I did not know. I've never actually met someone with that name, but it sounded female to me so that's what I assumed. Thanks for correcting me.

Plus Sandy Mitchell is only a pseudonym that he uses, his real name is Alex Stewart

I've heard Cain described as "Blackadder in Space" which makes sense because Blackadder is always backed up by his smelly, idiot friend Baldrick and his cunning plans.
And Blackadder is clearly based on Flashman in return.

A lot that can be said has already been said, so I'm just going to add this; considering his dislike of 'Emperor-botherers', he might actually be born in the wrong era. He would have done well during the liberal times of the Great Crusade.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Ciaphas Cain is an extreme case of fake it till you make it. Also, for Cain survival means more than just physical survival. It includes survival of character, which provides a wealth of comic gold in the series.

this is actually how i view cain, he's good at reading and fooling people.

I believe during the early part of his career he did everything for selfish and cowardly reasons, using his disembling ways to spin the actions into courageous examples to others. (with the help of everyone who saw it).

However, over the decades I think he reversed this. Doing courageous things, but telling himself that he only did it for cowardly reasons. Not to say he still isn't selfish in some actions, like trying to find the safest place to be.

I believe at some point, he (and Amberly) admits to not knowing who the real Cain is.