Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello,

(I know theres another thread on this, but when I tried to post in it, a little pop-up message told me that the thread was more then 3 months old and that I might "upset some of the orginal posters". So heres a new one as I didnt feel the orginal thread was 100% clear on the rules)

If a Monstraouss creatures (for instance one of the big Tyranid ones) assault some unit on the second floor of a ruin, can it then only hit them if the model can be placed on that floor? I think I read that it CAN assault them, and if it can't physical fit on the same floor, you just place it on the ground floor (or the floor underneath) but make sure that it has enough charge movement to go to the ruin and go 3" up. ?

Does the unit coherency rule work here? So it can actually hit models 6" away from its head?

Please help, and sorry if this has already been discussed it just seems awefully unclear/unlogical

Thanks!

I believe wobbly model syndrome covers this. Page 11, BRB.

I don't think it does. The rules say to decide if they can stand up there before the game. If you decide no the wms won't help.

There is a section in the book on page 101 about it, but ofc it only covers normal models and dosen't say squat about any other models. It says that the models needs to be in base contact, but if they cant (because its hard to move models around inside a ruined building) its perfectly fine to just place them as close to each other as possible. HOWEVER some other place in the book it says that MC (and I a couple of other models) are not allowed to move into or up/down a ruin? So MCs are screwed when it comes to ruins? Place some snipers on top level and the MC can't get to them?

Unless said MC can jump up there in some way.

So a Wraithknight cannot attack models in the second floor, even though that second floor was at the height of its knee?

He can if hr uses his jump pack to jump there, but not otherwise.

 HoverBoy wrote:
He can if hr uses his jump pack to jump there, but not otherwise.

Yes, I mean the situation where he can't fit there. Well, this is stupid.

 HoverBoy wrote:
He can if hr uses his jump pack to jump there, but not otherwise.

It says on page 98 that you have to agree with your oponent if a MC can move on the upper levels, but only if it can physical be placed there. So you can only place the dreadknight on the upper levels if it can fit there? GL with that :(

Crimson wrote:So a Wraithknight cannot attack models in the second floor, even though that second floor was at the height of its knee?

Unless you and your opponent have decided at the start of the game to allow MCs to move onto upper levels in that Ruin, yes, that is correct.

Silly, but correct. As I think I've mentioned in a previous thread, it would make far more sense (and be wonderfully 'cinematic') to allow MCs to assault models on any level that they can reach. Say, up to head height for covenience... And this would, coincidentally, help to discourage the generally rather apocryphal 'Crouching Wraithlord Syndrome' since there would suddenly be a very good reason for making sure your MCs have good posture

HoverBoy wrote:He can if hr uses his jump pack to jump there, but not otherwise.

Having a jump pack won't cancel out the fact that only certain unit types are allowed to move on the upper levels.

 insaniak wrote:

Silly, but correct. As I think I've mentioned in a previous thread, it would make far more sense (and be wonderfully 'cinematic') to allow MCs to assault models on any level that they can reach. Say, up to head height for covenience... And this would, coincidentally, help to discourage the generally rather apocryphal 'Crouching Wraithlord Syndrome' since there would suddenly be a very good reason for making sure your MCs have good posture

Oh, that would be an excellent rule! Post it to GW so that the can put it in next errata! (Yes, I'm being overly optimistic.)

 insaniak wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:He can if hr uses his jump pack to jump there, but not otherwise.

Having a jump pack won't cancel out the fact that only certain unit types are allowed to move on the upper levels.

What about the fact that all types of jump and jet pack units can move up (if the model can physically be placed there)?

Yeah, that'll do it... Was still on my first coffee of the morning, sorry

To be fair I was looking up if jump models could still land on impassable terrain (like 5th) and discovered that little blurb.

My tactics in last game (Flyrant with Immovable Object Warlord Trait) would have been just a bit different. Still won though. Just assaulted his last Kabalite Warrior squad with a Tervigon and pulled him off the objective. And then swept them.

 Happyjew wrote:

What about the fact that all types of jump and jet pack units can move up (if the model can physically be placed there)?

So this rule takes precedence? I have read them both and had too come across this,

Has anyone had this issue in Tournaments? I mean, whats the officlal judges/GWs stance on this?

The rule for ruins clearly state what type of models can move up in ruins. For things like the Wraithknight and Riptide that have to actually fit on the upper levels to move there as well.

A wraith knight on the second floor bent over trying to poke marines is cheesy, just take a step back and blast the crap out of them.

More likely it would just smash the ruin and collapse it on their heads.

Fragile wrote:
More likely it would just smash the ruin and collapse it on their heads.

That would be cool, if the rules covered that, but they do not.

As a house rule, I think it could make for an interesting addition to the game, being able to collapse ruins that have enemy units within them. maybe like AV10 1 hull point, Treats all cover saves as a -, Ignores glancing hits from Str5 or less weapons, one penetrating hit collapses the terrain (Do not roll on the vehicle Damage table), remove the ruin and place a similar sized area of Wreckage/Rubble in its place. Any models that are at least partially within the ruins base, or on a higher level of the ruin will take a wound on a 4+ , models two levels off of the ground or higher take a wound on a 2+ as they fall into the Rubble.

That would make ruins absolutely pointless to be inside.

How about treat the ruin as an AV13 vehicle if you shoot at it. If you get a penetrating hit, roll a dice. On a 2+ nothing happens. On a 1 the ruin collapses. Models inside take wounds as you describe.

The way you say it, nobody in their right mind would ever go into ruins. Screw 4+ cover.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The way you say it, nobody in their right mind would ever go into ruins. Screw 4+ cover.

I would. I'm less likely to take wounds from the ruin collapsing than I am just tanking the shots with my 6+ save and 3T.

But its stupidly easy to just remove the ruin and wound half your guys. If I am playing against you I want you to put your guys in the ruin so I can shoot it and wound half of them.

So I shoot the ruin with a Krak missile. Wound half your dudes, then finish off the survivors with other shooting now that your 4+ cover is gone.

 Grey Templar wrote:
But its stupidly easy to just remove the ruin and wound half your guys. If I am playing against you I want you to put your guys in the ruin so I can shoot it and wound half of them.

So I shoot the ruin with a Krak missile. Wound half your dudes, then finish off the survivors with other shooting now that your 4+ cover is gone.

Or you shoot my dudes (we'll assume with a 5+ cover save) and do about the same damage.

 Grey Templar wrote:
But its stupidly easy to just remove the ruin and wound half your guys. If I am playing against you I want you to put your guys in the ruin so I can shoot it and wound half of them.

So I shoot the ruin with a Krak missile. Wound half your dudes, then finish off the survivors with other shooting now that your 4+ cover is gone.

The 4+ cover is not gone... I said to " remove the ruin and place a similar sized area of Wreckage/Rubble in its place" Wreckage/Rubble confers a 4+ cover save and it is also area terrain...

If you still think it is too weak, make it 2 hull points and the first pen does not roll on the vehicle damage table, instead remove a hull point, and a random model from every unit that is in the ruin takes a Str 3 hit.

Or just make it D3+2 hits that wound on a 4+/2+ on each unit inside the ruin when it collapses

I too would like to be able to blow up ruins, the 4 level ruins are a pain especially if you happen to play bikes or beasts for fast attack.

I think if you're going to create rules for that it would be better to adapt the Fortifications rules e.g. brick house (for the purposes of damage only). Even though theres a cuttout outlining the distinction between fortifications and terrain the damage rules could still be applied.

Funny thing about 4-leveled ruins. As I mentioned earlier, my last game Nids (me) vs Dark Eldar. He had an objective on the very top floor of a large ruin. Knowing there was no way I'd be able to deny the objective in time, I instead charged my Tervigon into his lone Warrior from the squad on the ground floor. Pile-in pulled them away from the objective, sweeping advance took out his only remaining non-vehicle unit. Left him with 2 flyers and 4 transports.

Ruins are overpowered in the current environment. In fact its usually far better to be in a ruin than in the death traps known as buildings.

FunJohn wrote:
Has anyone had this issue in Tournaments? I mean, whats the officlal judges/GWs stance on this?

There is no world-wide, all-encompassing tournament standard. You would need to ask the judges at whichever tournament you were looking to enter.

FunJohn wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
He can if hr uses his jump pack to jump there, but not otherwise.

It says on page 98 that you have to agree with your oponent if a MC can move on the upper levels, but only if it can physical be placed there. So you can only place the dreadknight on the upper levels if it can fit there? GL with that :(

Actually GW ruins are pretty bug, if my riptide can fit i see no reason why a taller model on the same base won't.
With that said it doesn't fit everywhere on the ruin so positioning can still be done to block off the monster, kinda like in the movies the creature is clawing at the characters but can't reach them trough the small opening (the last bit is to promote "cinematic" thinking).