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After running a past 1850 list a few times, and a couple of losses I've made up a revision of the spoilered list. It primarily struggled when opponents field any decent number of models as I lacked a way to deal enough wounds to them all.



As it stands now : 1850

HQ
Chaplain - 120
jump pack, meltabombs

Troops
Tactical Squad - 215
combi-flamer, flamer, heavy bolter
rhino
Tactical Squad - 215
combi-flamer, flamer, heavy bolter
rhino
Tactical Squad - 210
meltagun, multi-melta
rhino

Elites
Ironclad Dreadnought - 175
heavy flamer (replacing the stormbolter)
drop pod

Fast Attack
Assault Squad - 215
meltabombs, 2 flamers
3 Landspeeders - 270
heavy bolter, typhoon missile launcher
2 Attack Bikers - 100
multi-melta

Heavy Support
Predator - 165
Tri-lascannon
Predator - 165
Tri-lascannon


Main weaknesses of original list
- sternguard; there were too few to pose a substantial threat with bolters, and not mobile enough to make the best use of melta
- dreadnought; AV12, it just died all the time and the autocannons were kinda average when paying that much for them.
- scouts; come to the conclusion that these just suck. Don't work so don't bother.
- too many AT focussed predators

Changes for new list
- Ironclad; AV13 makes it hopefully a lot more durable. Intend to drop it in an area that the assault squad will follow in after (not by deep striking, just jumping).
- The typhoon speeders are quite versatile so happy with them and can stay back out of range.
- Lost the sternguard librarian unit for a chaplain assault squad. I feel this may be wishful thinking but it seems to me they could work, a lot would depend on target selection. With no melee units in my original army, this was sporadically an issue. But the main reason for them is that CC is quite determinant. Whereas a whole TAC squad could fire at some CSM and kill 3 then they just fire back, in CC they're locked until someone dies or runs. So this is where target selection would come in.

Overall, I feel there's a bit more balance and its not so heavily disposed to AT. I can see things like fliers could still be an issue, 1-2 should be fine but beyond that what can you do other than get fliers of your own. So having the assault squad, yay or nay?

Looks good. The inclusion of the ironclad is awesome AV13 is a pain in close combat; with I could get some AV13 walkers for CSM or Orks.

I think the SM predator is too expensive for tripple las; particularly when there are other parts of the force geared up for taking out armour from closer range; I'm thinking a thunderfire cannon may be more useful, free up some points and give you a different unit to drop in (I'm not sure in what instance you would do this but the option is there!) On a similar not I would tend to go for more attack bikes than typhoons because they are cheaper and can assault to finish off small units; or to lend a hand in big scraps.

The big units of marines I like. I would be tempted to arm one to split out a fire-support combat squad. Say with a plasmagun and plasma cannon so you have a small unit to help with the shooting duties.

I think you need at least some anti-air, I'm not sure if this comes from a flyer of your own or an ADL.

Nice to see a full sized assault squad, I definitely like the idea of them meeting up with the Ironclad. Infact I like it so much I would suggest an Ironclad to run up with the rhinos; does your opponent try to pop the rhinos or glance the ironclad?

As a SM player, I've had good and bad results with assault marines. Last game I played against crons though, I ran a jump pack chaplain with 10 assault marines with 2 flamers and PF for the Sgt. They worked their way through a 5x destroyer unit, 10x immortal unit, and a 15x immortal unit. I had the assault sgt and 3 marines left at the end. That was the best result I've seen from my assault marines thus far. I've had some horrible results as well so I'm kind of on the fence. That last game makes me want to include them into more lists though. As far as scout snipers go....they've been a must take for me. Possible rending weapon that reaches 36" is just nice. I play in a friendly group and nobody is overly competitive and every one of the guys I've played viewed the snipers as a very high priority target. So much so they've had units dedicated to taking them out. The last game against the cron player was nice as he was headed to the snipers with the destroyer unit until they got intercepted and taken out by the assault squad. His focus then shifted to the assault squad and the snipers dropped half of that 15x immortal squad before the assault squad killed the rest. I guess your use may vary for everything in the codex but that's just my perspective of my uses for those squads

Thunderfire Cannons would really boost your hitting power. As for scouts, you use them in a group of 10 with Telion, camo cloaks, and sniper rifles for max results.

 IngenuityGap wrote:
Thunderfire Cannons would really boost your hitting power. As for scouts, you use them in a group of 10 with Telion, camo cloaks, and sniper rifles for max results.

Agreed. I never field my scouts without adding sniper rifles and cloaks. I've never added Telion to them though.

Cheers for the responses,

I'm not so sure of a walking ironclad. Their weapons are all pretty close range unless I give it a hurricane bolter, which could work as an infantry clearer.

I would be in agreement with the typhoons, they're a bit pricey. If points are needed, one of these would probably be the first to go. Interesting point on the attack bikes though. They've been in assaults before but not from me charging them in, in the original list they were in 2 separate units but together it seems a viable tactic. Especially if there is a guy or 2 the assault squad hasn't finished.

With regards to the predators, I really am not a fan of giving them autocannons. If the meltagun TAC squad was to be given plasma, I would really like the extra lascannons. Pretty much every game they've been in they have made up their cost (provided there's vehicles fielded against me) and between them I should be able to knock out one flier with relative confidence.

A TFC would be good, but I feel there is enough anti infantry in there at the moment (not to mention the fact I don't own one and it costs $110) so it should be okay without one.

I've always run my scouts with the camo and snipers as well, but normally they are pretty mediocre. An average of 2.5 wounds per turn, with only sporadically a rending is hardly good. And they are the same price as regular marines with camo but have a way worse stat line. Normally I would get a kill or two off them each turn, but costing 170pts for the unit, it's very unlikely they'll pull their weight even if its terminators which are dropping. Telion is good, but I feel like he has a whole bunch of hidden costs. You pay out of the roof for his constant precision shots, but the gun he has doesn't exactly do it justice. So often I would be inclined to put him on an ADL with an Icarus. Consistent hits, normally with ID that you allocate wounds for is very good. But 305pts good? No...


So there are 2 changes I'm tossing around.

1/
- Loose 1 Typhoon
- Replace meltagun TAC squad with:
Tac squad - 235
combi-plasma, plasmagun, plasma cannon
TL-HB razorback
- Take storm shield and PF on assault sergeant

Question: On the chaplain entry it says he can replace his boltgun for a PF. So does that mean he could have both crozius and PF, being both speciality weapons maintains the +1 attack and can choose in each assault phase which one he wants to use? (e.g blitz some firewarriors with the mace one turn then terminators the next)

2/
- Loose the typhoon and take autocannons on the predators
- Add in one Ironclad:
Ironclad Dreadnought - 140
hurricane bolter, meltagun
- change meltagun TAC for above plasma TAC


If the chaplain loadout is viable, I would be more inclined to go for the first option. Losing the TL-LC would hurt.

tl/dr: look at option 1

 rahxephon wrote:

A TFC would be good, but I feel there is enough anti infantry in there at the moment (not to mention the fact I don't own one and it costs $110) so it should be okay without one.

Question: On the chaplain entry it says he can replace his boltgun for a PF. So does that mean he could have both crozius and PF, being both speciality weapons maintains the +1 attack and can choose in each assault phase which one he wants to use? (e.g blitz some firewarriors with the mace one turn then terminators the next)

I really hope your FLGS isn't charging $110 for a TFC!!! If so you should just buy a baneblade!! HAHA I'm assuming you meant 100 points to field it but I've assumed wrong alot in the past.

And as I interpret the rules...yes you can but as you stated you need to choose which you'll be using. His power maul is a nice weapon that I've had good results with. With str6 and ap2 or is it 3??? (sorry...don't have my rule book with me at the moment) it's usually good enough to deal with most things a power fist can deal with as well. Doesn't provide instant death to most units but will bypass most armor. And it doesn't knock his initiative down to 1 either. To me seems like the power fist points can be used elsewhere in your list but that's me. Your uses will obviously vary from mine. I hope this helps some. Good luck.

You assume wrongly... welcome to New Zealand prices.

I'm scared of that flamer dread Rah. Boyz can't kill it. Lootas can't effectively kill it. Grot Bomms can't effectively kill it. Fighty characters will be killed by it. Ork Dreds are garbage and will trip over themselves and die on the way to fight it...

Ah... uh... nevermind, found something that will do it and do it cheap >_> Best to leave it at home in our next game...

Go gain an attack from specialist weapons you need two of the same weapon. Also, power mauls make you plus two s but only ap4.

What space marines are good at is keeping a static gunline withdrop podding sternguard with pedro to make em scoring. Assault units end up being too pricy, regular sm are bad enough but if you pay 20+ points better be getting bikes or sternguards.

Iirc sm gets divination. Put cheap libby with heavy weapons or snipers with just the primaris power.

Also someone mentioned they wished they had av13 in csm....they do, its called the defiler and it has a battle cannon and also 4 hullpoints. Iirc also a 5++

Back to SM. The key is missle launchers. Versatile as it gets. Melta is your specialty and forget heavy bolters. Heavy bolters are useless. Three shots at s5 is nothing compared to blasts or a single s8 ap3. Also, with your preds, keep em cheap and keep em versatile. I suggest autocannon with lc sponsons. Gives you enough shots to take light armor and a few duders as well as keeping it cheap. Cheapness is another key to any SM list. Why does csm take cultists? They're dirt cheap. Keep your army the same way the best you can. If you splurge points somewhere, make sure it's durable as it can get I.e.snipers with cloaks.

Nenya97 wrote:
Go gain an attack from specialist weapons you need two of the same weapon. Also, power mauls make you plus two s but only ap4.

What space marines are good at is keeping a static gunline withdrop podding sternguard with pedro to make em scoring. Assault units end up being too pricy, regular sm are bad enough but if you pay 20+ points better be getting bikes or sternguards.

Iirc sm gets divination. Put cheap libby with heavy weapons or snipers with just the primaris power.

Also someone mentioned they wished they had av13 in csm....they do, its called the defiler and it has a battle cannon and also 4 hullpoints. Iirc also a 5++

Back to SM. The key is missle launchers. Versatile as it gets. Melta is your specialty and forget heavy bolters. Heavy bolters are useless. Three shots at s5 is nothing compared to blasts or a single s8 ap3. Also, with your preds, keep em cheap and keep em versatile. I suggest autocannon with lc sponsons. Gives you enough shots to take light armor and a few duders as well as keeping it cheap. Cheapness is another key to any SM list. Why does csm take cultists? They're dirt cheap. Keep your army the same way the best you can. If you splurge points somewhere, make sure it's durable as it can get I.e.snipers with cloaks.

Just to correct some things:

Specialist weapons don't need to match, they just need to both have the "specialist" trait. So you can run powerfist and lightning claws for the extra attack. The Crozius however, is just a fancy name for a power maul, and is not a specialist weapon. You get an extra attack just for keeping your bolt pistol. When using a jump chaplain, the most I upgrade him is with melta bombs. His basic kit is all he needs.

C:SM don't get divination, other flavored codexes do.

On to suggestions:

I like the concept of a walking hurricane ironclad. He's like a big AV13 tac squad. The question is if your list needs more of that.

I love typhoon/HB speeders, but 3 in one squadron might be a little much. One of the things that helps them live is that they are effective and irritating, but not so bad that they need to die right now. You put 3 in a squad and I think your opponent is going to say "enough is enough, time to DIE!" Once the fire heads their way, it's not long before they crater into the ground.

I'll second the auto/las pred recommendation. Until they reduce the price I can't in good conscience suggest the TLLC turret.

It might be worth swapping one of the HBs for a ML. Flexibility can be a nice thing. HBs still have a place though. They mulch xenos troops rather well. Frag missile can as well in a pinch, but I've seen an orc player carpet his deployment zone at max 2" unit spacing, so sometimes blasts aren't as helpful as you'd think.

Who's camping your home objective? If you aren't using scouts, plan on combat squadding a tac squad and buying a razor, or just drop the transport all together and get some nice guns.

if you do use scouts for your home objective and have 50 points to spare you could throw in a techmarine to bolster defences