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So this is a general idea for what the higher tier single unit dedicated Chaos units should have rather than just having to get a mark so we can truly have our Deathguard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and Emperor's children armies.




As I'm dubious of my ability to stat out prices for something I'll have a general list of ideas for Rubric terminators to start things off.

What they should have: (Note all Termies may take the various melee options for Termies, so they aren't stuck with power swords/axes)

Rubrics get: Slow and purposeful, Fearless, Bile grenades, Inferno bolt combi-bolters (for AP3 goodness), a 3++ invulnerable save (as Rubric marines get a 4++). May take the mouth of tzeentch (S5 AP3 template) or combi inferno flamers (S4 AP3 template) or inferno reaper autocannons (S7 AP3 Heavy 2 twinlinked).

50 points or so.

Overall gist of rubric terminators: Overall Tzeentch has had a fairly rough sixth edition, with flamers being worse than useless against MEQs, Rubric Terminators being beyond bad, the Mark of Tzeentch being sneered at by CSM players everywhere, and Ahriman usually being seen as the worst of the dedicated Chaos Lords.

Plague terminators: Slow and purposeful, Fearless toughness, 5, -1 initiative, poisoned close combat, weapons, feel no pain, may take Bilespewer (S5 2+ poison AP4 flamer, pinning), or upgrade combi-bolters and reaper autocannons with poisoned bolts (adds 4+ poison), combiflamers are replaced with regurgitators (S4 4+ poison AP5, pinning).

65 points.

Overall gist: Some may cry foul on termies with toughness five and feel no pain. But at the premium they'd cost and their inability to score I really see no problem.

Noise terminators:

Noise: Fearless, counter attack, gains access to Noise Weapons, basic weapon is a twin linked sonic blaster, two units may take twin-linked blast masters. Champion has access to a twinlinked Doom siren (must have Mark of Slaanesh) May engage in sweeping advances.

Noise Marine Terminators should be around 40 points per model.

Terminator Bezerkers:

Berzerker: +1 WS, Furious Charge, Fearless, Assault grenades, Come with power axes as standard, and +1 attack. All models in the unit may take chainfists and may be upgraded with rampage or HATRED for an indeterminate number of points per model. May ignore unwieldy on the turn of assault. Skull champion may take Axe of Khorne which is as follows.

Axe of Khorne
Range: Melee
Str: As User
AP: 2
Special Ability: For every to-hit roll of 6, this model generates an extra attack. These extra attacks may also generate extra attacks.

45-48 points per model.

Bikers:

Not really big on bikes so others can fill this out

Raptors:



Noise Raptors: Equipped with Sonic Pistols (essentially a two shot bolt pistol that ignores cover) and sky dirges (successful hits from overwatch must be rerolled, wall of death attacks must reroll the number of hits they inflict and take the lowest), may take power weapons and may upgrade for counter attack (because they are that fast).

Bezerker Raptors: Jump pack Bezerkers (with a price increase of course) with the modifications described below, what more could you want?

Mutilators:

?

Dreadnoughts/Hellbrutes:

Will get to in good time:

Havocs:

Rubric Havocs: In addition to the standard inferno bolter scrubs and sorcerer, the Rubric Havocs get some tasty upgrades. You can take four inferno heavy bolters or Autocannons for AP3 goodness, Inferno missiles (AP 1 krak missiles, AP2 for flakk AP 4 for frag missiles), and Inferno autocannons (improves AP to 3), note that you will pay out of your nose for all this marine slaughtering slaughtering goodness. May take lascannons for the same price as heavy bolters.

Plague Havocs: As plague marines, except with poisoned weapons (as long as they fire a physical projectile anyway), nothing much to see here. Maybe pinning on some things here and there.


Obliterators:

Will get to in good time

Lords/Sorcerers:

Will get to in good time

Fixing Vanilla cult units:

Noise Marines: Largely fine as they are, could do with a points reduction perhaps and maybe a sonic pistol if you want it and counter assault. The niche I see for them is large amounts of dakka that ignore cover as well as being a counter assault unit.

Plague marines: Replace flamers with aforementioned regurgitator and let them buy poisoned bolts and they'll be golden. The purpose I see for them is stubbornly holding onto objectives come hell or high water while delivering large amounts of poison into your face.

Rubric marines: Needs options and a purpose. So for this, they may take an Inferno flamer (Ap3 flamer woo!), the option to buy power weapons (because you really hate marines), and a sorcerer who doesn't feel like a colossal waste. One big problem with sorcerers is that despite Tzeentch being the god of magic, his powers heartily suck. I think we'll need to redraw Tzeentch's power list to unfeth the Aspiring Sorcerer and guys like Ahriman. Essentially this retool will make the Rubrics a jack of all trades with an emphasis on killing marines.

Berzerkers: Chain axes should be standard issue like they have been for so damn long, they need an assault transport that won't eat up a colossal amount of points like the Land Raider. They should be able to take power weapons to cut up marines, as well as the option to buy rampage as the lack of Khornate units that have access this most Khornate of rules is upsetting.

Remember this is supposed to be an open forum for discussion rather than me just shooting out ideas. I'm just listing out categories of Chaos marines that could do with cult versions.

Berzerker Termies get fearless, furious charge and Mark of Khorne.

Hmm...what would be a fair pricing for them? As currently vanilla zerkers are heinously overpriced.

 Kain wrote:
Hmm...what would be a fair pricing for them? As currently vanilla zerkers are heinously overpriced.

If you made Berzerker Terminators WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD9 SV2+ and they had Fearless, Furious Charge, Rage/Counterattack then they'd probably cost around 38 points or so.

Honestly it would probably be easier to reduce current Khorne Berserkers to 17 points and then allow them Terminator Armor for 23 points/model at the cost of keeping them as Elites.

For Plague Terminators, they should cost 55 points or so. Probably 60.


To boil down the basic cults, here's what you do:

Berzerker: +1 WS, Furious Charge, Fearless, gain access to Chainaxes (must have Mark of Khorne)

Rubric: Champion gains a Mastery Level (or becomes Mastery Level 1 if it had no level). Unit is Fearless. Unit gains access to Inferno Bolts (enemies must reroll successful saves).
All non-Champion models gain "All is Dust: Reroll all saves of 1 against weapons that are Str5 or less. Relentless"
And yes I realize this is much different from their codex version. But the codex 1Ksons are horrifically bad

Plague: -1 Initiative, Feels No Pain, Fearless, Slow and Purposeful, Defensive Grenades (must have Mark of Nurgle)

Noise: Fearless, gains access to Noise Weapons. Champion has access to Blastmaster (must have Mark of Slaanesh)

Would giving Rubric marines the option to buy an AP3 flamer and Rubric termies the option for an AP2 heavy flamer be overpowered?

 Kain wrote:
Would giving Rubric marines the option to buy an AP3 flamer and Rubric termies the option for an AP2 heavy flamer be overpowered?

As long as it is costed appropriately, no. Hell look at the D-Scythes for Wraithguard.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Would giving Rubric marines the option to buy an AP3 flamer and Rubric termies the option for an AP2 heavy flamer be overpowered?

As long as it is costed appropriately, no. Hell look at the D-Scythes for Wraithguard.

Good, because everyone else gets nice options while Tzeentch is left out in the cold. Inferno bolt autocannons and heavy bolters are a maybe, although inferno missile launchers may be interesting (AP1 would go a long way to threatening armor of all sorts).

I'll keep your suggestions in mind for the big list.

Updated the list, I'd appreciate suggested point costs.

 Kain wrote:
Updated the list, I'd appreciate suggested point costs.

Terminator Bezerkers:

Berzerker: +1 WS, Furious Charge, Fearless, Come with power axes as standard, has RAGE and +1 attack. All models in the unit may take chainfists and may be upgraded with rampage for an indeterminate number of points per model.

I noticed that you gave them Rage even though the Mark of Khorne already gives them that. Just giving them +1 WS, Furious Charge, Fearless, and +1 Attack is pretty neat (so that they have 5 attacks on the charge unless they have lightning claws in which case they have 6).

In terms of upgrades, I noticed that you gave the other Terminators some special weapons options.

For Berzerkers, all Champions should be allowed to take an Axe of Khorne, which is

Axe of Khorne
Range: Melee
Str: As User
AP: 2
Special Ability: For every to-hit roll of 6, this model generates an extra attack. These extra attacks may also generate extra attacks.

For Terminators, the cost to upgrade should be around 5 points if it replaces a power weapon. For all others, the cost to upgrade should be 20 points.

Also I think it would be cool if Berzerk Terminators were allowed to sweeping advance, or to ignore Unwieldy the turn that they charge.

That being said, right now I'd cost the Berzerker Terminators (with Power Axes) at around 38-40 points. Melee is a lot worse this edition so I would never charge more than 40 points per model for a single one.

I'd cost Plague Terminators at 60+ points per model.

Plague Raptors doesn't seem to fit their style, but I could easily see Noise Raptors having some sort of... In the 5th Ed dex, they were supposed to have amplifiers built into their helmets so they made a screech, if I remember correctly, so I could imagine them having some sort of noise weapon that doesn't take up their BP/CCWs, with an assault capability, and obviously increased initiative :3

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Plague Raptors doesn't seem to fit their style, but I could easily see Noise Raptors having some sort of... In the 5th Ed dex, they were supposed to have amplifiers built into their helmets so they made a screech, if I remember correctly, so I could imagine them having some sort of noise weapon that doesn't take up their BP/CCWs, with an assault capability, and obviously increased initiative :3

Well we know what a dirge caster does, which is kill overwatch, so perhaps their dirge things could also deal with overwatch? Although I would rather it mitigate rather than eliminate overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also updated.

So how balanced is this so far, and how would you put in the points costs?

I honestly don't like the idea of the Rubric Raptors. They don't fit the army doctrine.

It would be cool to make a reference to the TS cults.

For example, an aspiring sorcerer or sorcerer with the mark of tzeentch may take spells from the lore of tzeentch and from one of the following disciplines : Pyrokinesis, Telepathy, Divination, Biomancy and telekinesis.

Source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Thousand_Sons#Cults_of_the_Thousand_Sons


EDIT: Hold on, I have idea. How about make the Rubric Marines jet pack infantry instead of jump infantry, and give them ranged weapons instead of CC weapons. That should match the army theme and doctrine

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I honestly don't like the idea of the Rubric Raptors. They don't fit the army doctrine.

It would be cool to make a reference to the TS cults.

For example, an aspiring sorcerer or sorcerer with the mark of tzeentch may take spells from the lore of tzeentch and from one of the following disciplines : Pyrokinesis, Telepathy, Prescience, Biomancy and telekinesis.

Source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Thousand_Sons#Cults_of_the_Thousand_Sons


EDIT: Hold on, I have idea. How about make the Rubric Marines jet pack infantry instead of jump infantry, and give them ranged weapons instead of CC weapons. That should match the army theme and doctrine

Combibolter Jetpack infantry mayhaps?

Also, the idea for sorcerers is quite interesting.

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I honestly don't like the idea of the Rubric Raptors. They don't fit the army doctrine.

It would be cool to make a reference to the TS cults.

For example, an aspiring sorcerer or sorcerer with the mark of tzeentch may take spells from the lore of tzeentch and from one of the following disciplines : Pyrokinesis, Telepathy, Prescience, Biomancy and telekinesis.

Source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Thousand_Sons#Cults_of_the_Thousand_Sons


EDIT: Hold on, I have idea. How about make the Rubric Marines jet pack infantry instead of jump infantry, and give them ranged weapons instead of CC weapons. That should match the army theme and doctrine

Combibolter Jetpack infantry mayhaps?

Also, the idea for sorcerers is quite interesting.

Yep, with inferno bolts, naturally.

Thanks

I thought it was a bit odd how 10000 year old sorcerers were so limited, when there are specialized cabals of them in the fluff who are exceptionally good at mindrape, fortune telling, setting gak on FIRE, throwing desks with their minds, and falcon punching with psychically charged fists.

Aspiring Sorcerers should be Lv2 and Sorcerers should be Lv3, due to their aforementioned aptitude

Are the special and heavy weapons for the rubrics too OOT or not? I was worried that AP3 flamers and AP2 HBolters and autocannons out the wazoo would be intimidating.

 Kain wrote:
Are the special and heavy weapons for the rubrics too OOT or not? I was worried that AP3 flamers and AP2 HBolters and autocannons out the wazoo would be intimidating.

Yeah, it is a bit insane. I would just grant soulblaze to all of them. It's not as nasty, but not as rage-worthy either.
Besides, with access to the new discipline I've suggested, that could open the way for some nasty combos already.

Alternatively, you could make everyone in the squad a psy user. Not sure how that would pan out though.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Are the special and heavy weapons for the rubrics too OOT or not? I was worried that AP3 flamers and AP2 HBolters and autocannons out the wazoo would be intimidating.

Yeah, it is a bit insane. I would just grant soulblaze to all of them. It's not as nasty, but not as rage-worthy either.
Besides, with access to the new discipline I've suggested, that could open the way for some nasty combos already.

Alternatively, you could make everyone in the squad a psy user. Not sure how that would pan out though.

Hmm...well I would suggest making them upgrades, but I remember the epic amounts of bitching over the 5e Grey Knight's psybolts and how they gave you an extra point of strength for a pittance.

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Are the special and heavy weapons for the rubrics too OOT or not? I was worried that AP3 flamers and AP2 HBolters and autocannons out the wazoo would be intimidating.

Yeah, it is a bit insane. I would just grant soulblaze to all of them. It's not as nasty, but not as rage-worthy either.
Besides, with access to the new discipline I've suggested, that could open the way for some nasty combos already.

Alternatively, you could make everyone in the squad a psy user. Not sure how that would pan out though.

Hmm...well I would suggest making them upgrades, but I remember the epic amounts of bitching over the 5e Grey Knight's psybolts and how they gave you an extra point of strength for a pittance.

Yep, that and it would completely invalidate every other HS choice; it doesn't matter how much they are, people will still get as many of as possible because they would be so ridiculously powerful. It would be like the Helldrake and wraiths, except worse.

 Kain wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Plague Raptors doesn't seem to fit their style, but I could easily see Noise Raptors having some sort of... In the 5th Ed dex, they were supposed to have amplifiers built into their helmets so they made a screech, if I remember correctly, so I could imagine them having some sort of noise weapon that doesn't take up their BP/CCWs, with an assault capability, and obviously increased initiative :3

Well we know what a dirge caster does, which is kill overwatch, so perhaps their dirge things could also deal with overwatch? Although I would rather it mitigate rather than eliminate overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also updated.

Maybe their vox amplifiers churn up the ground, causing the overwatchers to miss? Or some of them would have to cover their ears or some other such thing, and they'd only get half shots?

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Plague Raptors doesn't seem to fit their style, but I could easily see Noise Raptors having some sort of... In the 5th Ed dex, they were supposed to have amplifiers built into their helmets so they made a screech, if I remember correctly, so I could imagine them having some sort of noise weapon that doesn't take up their BP/CCWs, with an assault capability, and obviously increased initiative :3

Well we know what a dirge caster does, which is kill overwatch, so perhaps their dirge things could also deal with overwatch? Although I would rather it mitigate rather than eliminate overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also updated.

Maybe their vox amplifiers churn up the ground, causing the overwatchers to miss? Or some of them would have to cover their ears or some other such thing, and they'd only get half shots?

Noise Raptors: Equipped with Sonic Pistols (essentially a two shot bolt pistol that ignores cover) and sky dirges (successful hits from overwatch must be rerolled, wall of death attacks must reroll the number of hits they inflict and take the lowest), may take power weapons and may upgrade for counter attack (because they are that fast).

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Are the special and heavy weapons for the rubrics too OOT or not? I was worried that AP3 flamers and AP2 HBolters and autocannons out the wazoo would be intimidating.

Yeah, it is a bit insane. I would just grant soulblaze to all of them. It's not as nasty, but not as rage-worthy either.
Besides, with access to the new discipline I've suggested, that could open the way for some nasty combos already.

Alternatively, you could make everyone in the squad a psy user. Not sure how that would pan out though.

Are you serious? The Tzeentch icon grants Soulblaze already. Why would you ever suggest that?

Also Kain,
I'd recommend this:

Cult Terminators (definitely)

and then possibly 1KSon and Plague Cult Havocs, and then Noise and Berzerker Raptors.


Also with what is up there currently for Khorne Berzerker Terminators, I would recommend around 45-48 points per model.
Again I'd recommend that Plague Terminators be costed at about 65 points.
Rubric Terminators could be costed at around 50 points or so.
Noise Marine Terminators should be around 40 points per model.

 Kain wrote:

Noise Raptors: Equipped with Sonic Pistols (essentially a two shot bolt pistol that ignores cover) and sky dirges (successful hits from overwatch must be rerolled, wall of death attacks must reroll the number of hits they inflict and take the lowest), may take power weapons and may upgrade for counter attack (because they are that fast).

I am a massive fan of less is more, and massive fan of Slaanesh. Raptors are already described as slightly mutating to warp predators and they used to screech and howl as they flew around, linking them to Slaaneshi Noise Cult aready.

So I'd make them normal Raptors, allow the Champion access to a Doomsiren, give them the Sky Dirge ability that you describe, and leave it at that.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Are the special and heavy weapons for the rubrics too OOT or not? I was worried that AP3 flamers and AP2 HBolters and autocannons out the wazoo would be intimidating.

Yeah, it is a bit insane. I would just grant soulblaze to all of them. It's not as nasty, but not as rage-worthy either.
Besides, with access to the new discipline I've suggested, that could open the way for some nasty combos already.

Alternatively, you could make everyone in the squad a psy user. Not sure how that would pan out though.

Are you serious? The Tzeentch icon grants Soulblaze already. Why would you ever suggest that?

Oh does it? Thought that was just the cult units. Ok then...reroll to wounds then?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Are the special and heavy weapons for the rubrics too OOT or not? I was worried that AP3 flamers and AP2 HBolters and autocannons out the wazoo would be intimidating.

Yeah, it is a bit insane. I would just grant soulblaze to all of them. It's not as nasty, but not as rage-worthy either.
Besides, with access to the new discipline I've suggested, that could open the way for some nasty combos already.

Alternatively, you could make everyone in the squad a psy user. Not sure how that would pan out though.

Are you serious? The Tzeentch icon grants Soulblaze already. Why would you ever suggest that?

Oh does it? Thought that was just the cult units. Ok then...reroll to wounds then?

Plague units already can get poisoned ammunition.

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Are the special and heavy weapons for the rubrics too OOT or not? I was worried that AP3 flamers and AP2 HBolters and autocannons out the wazoo would be intimidating.

Yeah, it is a bit insane. I would just grant soulblaze to all of them. It's not as nasty, but not as rage-worthy either.
Besides, with access to the new discipline I've suggested, that could open the way for some nasty combos already.

Alternatively, you could make everyone in the squad a psy user. Not sure how that would pan out though.

Are you serious? The Tzeentch icon grants Soulblaze already. Why would you ever suggest that?

Oh does it? Thought that was just the cult units. Ok then...reroll to wounds then?

Plague units already can get poisoned ammunition.

Damn...and Slaanesh already has ignore cover.

No line of sight required maybe? You can say they can see the souls of their targets, since they are all ghosty and psychic.

Perhaps improving AP by 1 instead of 2 would be nice? But that'd nerf plain old rubric marines, who are already fierce contenders for the spot of "worst unit in the entire codex if not the game".

Not really. Havocs are still HS after all, so they can't take objectives except in certain scenarios. I would also think they would be a tad more expensive than their troop variant.

And no, Rubric marines are not the worse unit in the game. Flayed Ones are much worse
Flayed Ones will just get flat out murdered by Rubric Marines, even in combat.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Not really. Havocs are still HS after all, so they can't take objectives except in certain scenarios. I would also think they would be a tad more expensive than their troop variant.

And no, Rubric marines are not the worse unit in the game. Flayed Ones are much worse
Flayed Ones will just get flat out murdered by Rubric Marines, even in combat.

Well if I changed inferno ammunition to -1 AP that would nerf troop Rubrics as well as havocs.

Oh yeah, totally. You still can't have AP2 though, because that will mess up the external balance a bit. There's a reason why GW changed all the power weapons to be AP3