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My FLGS is doing a Kurst Anniversary battle, and I'm looking at the following list:

HQ 2 StuG's w/Schurtzen 350
CP 4 StuG's w/Schurtzen 700
CP 2 Panthers 550
WP Full Scout Platoon 150

Total 1750


I already know that this isn't a killer list, but it is what I've got. This'll be my first game, and the scenarios are set up so that they are very historical.
QUESTIONS
Are the Schurtzen worth the points?
When should I have all 6 StuG's together, and when should I split the HQ off?
What do I need to be particularly careful of?

This is the equivelent of heavy tank lists in LW. In other words it will slaughter some armies but get slaughtered in turn by others. Once the Panthers go down it is basically game over.

I realise that this is a cheap army but its not one that I would recommend for a beginner.

Schurzen are cheap but not all that useful. Personally I wouldn't take any.

You would be as well keeping all your StuGs together although you could form a kampffgruppe to give yourself an extra platoon which would mean that you will start with another platoon on the table in some scenarios. The downside is that this will give you 1 weak and 1 weakish platoon.

What you will have (a lot of) difficulty with is artillery and dug in infantry.

Well if its Kursk all the Panthers will breakdown before they do anything...

Big P wrote:
Well if its Kursk all the Panthers will breakdown before they do anything...

They had a tendency to catch fire, just driving around didn' t they (I remember something about them being loaded on a Train and catching fire and burning)? As well as being woefully unreliable.

Yer... Transmission faults, poor gaskets and a useless cooling system made them prone to overheating and rather flammable! Not too mention a host of other minor problems. The design was rushed. Defects in the hydraulic systems, steering, fuel and hydraulic fluid leaks combined with the over heating made them a nightmare.

Before the operation even began 10th Panzer Brigade lost two Panthers as complete write-offs when they burnt out. Another four burnt themselves out in the first four days of Citadel.

In the first five days of the operation, 39th Panzer Regiment took in 81 Panthers for repair. Some needing complete new engines, steering drives, transmissions etc.

If you look at the numbers of Panthers operational, they start with 166 and by the next day only 40 are operational. Given that up until 7th July only two Panthers are reported as having taken penetrating hits, the number of those suffering defects is quite drastic.

Most however were easy enough to repair and they did maintain on average 30 - 40 Panthers operational at the end of each day over the campaign (this means that numbers in the morning would be higher, German returns were compiled between 1700 and 2400 hours each day so you have no reliable record of repaired tanks going into action in the morning, only those still operational at that time). Of the 28 Panther write-offs up till 10th July, about 25% were due to non-enemy causes.

However it is estimated that the Panthers, despite the poor reliability rate, still accounted for almost half the soviet tank kills by XXXXVIII Panzer Corps. The tank kill range averaged a remarkable 1750 metres, with several kills recorded at 3000 metres.

I remember reading an article about a Wargame conducted by US Officers in late 1970's and early 80's where German Staff Officers from various units back in 1944 acted as OPFOR Commanders (all of them were like 60 - 80 years old but their minds were sharp).

One of the most surprising things, was that the Senior Staff of Panzer Regiments acting as WARPAC, were surprised at the high rate of availability of Armour in NATO formations and commented that when he was COS of 21st Panzer he rarely had a battalion of Panzers Operational in the entire division.

I will try to find it in my history and send you a link I think you would find it riveting.

I have infantry also, but I don't have transports for them yet. Besides, I don't think that german infantry is right for the feeling of Kursk. I know, historically, that there was a lot of german infantry around, but I wanna run my tanks.

I guess that this is the other list I could run:
HQ 1 Tiger 1E 395
CB 2 Tiger 1E 770
CB 1 Tiger iE 385
WP Under-strength Panzer Scout Platoon 115
DS Under-strength Rocket Launcher Battery w/2 Nebs and Transports 85
Total 1750

You know there was tons of infantry at Kursk, and the whole thousands of tanks battle is a bit of a myth...

Big P wrote:
You know there was tons of infantry at Kursk, and the whole thousands of tanks battle is a bit of a myth...

Agreed. The myth seems to stem from Prokorovka and the big engagement there. However, plenty of infantry were involved on both the Northern and Southern fronts of the salient.

@Big P:

Didn't the new Elefant tank destroyers have the same transmission problems at Kursk (similar to the Panthers)? I believe their issue was when they tried to traverse hills, the engine would over-heat and the compartment (engine) would catch fire.

The Kursk Salient is bigger than Wales isn' it?



It was an enormous Offensive, within it there was a huge Tank battle as well as hundreds of other battles.

The Ferdinands at Kursk did suffer from a range of mechanical issues. Within four days, half were out of action, with few (perhaps 2 or 3) due to enemy action. Mine damage also played a big part with Ferdinands as due to their weight, few could be recovered as the towing vehicles were not available in the required numbers too tow them (a single Ferdinand would require 3 Famo HTs to tow it). Because of this many had to be abandoned which could have been easily repaired. The main defect seems to have been fuel line fires, though other problems were reported and again overheating and poor cooling was one. The lack of a close defece weapon was another big issue. Some crews even resorted to firing an MG34 down the gun barrel, while others fitted a rear mounted platform to carry grenadiers but this proved pretty fatal for the riding soldiers.

Here is a game we are doing in a few weeks... I've copied and pasted it so don't go made..

OPERATION ZITADELLE - Prokarovka



3 x 6by 4 Tables - Lots of Fields and Russian Villages, no hills, mud roads, or trees. Lots of Fields of Grass (we use Door Mats cut up!!)

5 Players a Side...

One Objective 12" radius, if you are inside this you are contesting. If you hold the entire area 12" around the Objective, with no alive enemy Tanks contesting within 12" of the objective you win.

1500pts. Using the V3 Forces Book included with the Rules - Alternatively use the Easy Army V3 Force rules.

No Infantry, or Recce, or Air, no artillery (apart from SPG's). Tank Destroyers are permitted, as are Self propelled Guns.

GERMAN

German Players maybe the SS Panzerkompanie List or the Panzerkompanie List.

Only Vehicles Allowed - Marder II, Marder III, Panzer III, Panzer IV, Tiger 1E, Panther, Stug, STuH, Elephant, Hornisse, Nashorn, Ferdinand.

YOU CAN HAVE PANTHERS BUT THEY WILL BE UNRELIABLE!!!!!

SOVIET

All Soviet Players must take the TANKOVY BATALON List.

Soviets may only take the following vehicles

Only Vehicles Allowed - T-60, SU-76, T-70, SU-122, SU-152, T-34, KV-1

SOVIET VEHICLES CAN RAM!!

FORGO SHOOTING AND MOVE DIRECTLY TO CONTACT HULL TO HULL WITH AN ENEMY VEHICLE. THEN SKILL CHECK IF YOU PASS, YOU HIT THE ENEMY VEHICLE. IF UNSUCCESSFUL YOUR RAMMING ATTEMPT MISSED.

THEN COMPARE YOUR VEHICLES FRONT ARMOUR WITH THE ARMOUR OF THE ENEMY HIT. IF THE DIFFERENCE GREATER THAN 6 = INSTANT KILL. IF THE DIFFERENCE IS LESS THAN 6, THE ENEMY PLAYER ROLLS A D6 AND ADDS THIS VALUE TO THEIR ARMOUR VALUE, IF THIS EQUALS OR BEATS THE RAMMING VEHICLES FRONT ARMOUR THE VEHICLE SURVIVES.

Ramming... Another myth.

Never done deliberately except on very rare occasions. See Valery Zamulin's seminal work on Kursk - Demolishing the Myth.

He is the curator of the Kursk historical region.

Of course... For a game its a bit of fun I guess. But not too historical. Horses for courses.

I needed something to make the Russian Players feel better, they are going up against some really punishing Germans (especially the Ferdies etc) so I thought "Give the ability to Ram"....It's in the spirit of it, rather than historically accurate, but then history can make bad games because it is very rarely evenly matched or fair.

War aint fair...

But yer, I know what you mean.