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Scenario:
Enemy Nid unit charges my Necron Warriors with a Lord as Closest Model.
Nid Player's Prime is closest model so has to be in base contact with my Lord per BRB.
I propose a Challenge since my opponent did not.
Prime declines.

In the above scenario, would the Prime be valid for the randomly selected model in base contact for MSS? If so, would the Prime still inflict D3 hits on the unit if affected?

Any model in base contact could be selected at random to be affected by MSS. This includes the Prime. Declining a challenge does not give any allowance to move the model in question.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Any model in base contact could be selected at random to be affected by MSS. This includes the Prime. Declining a challenge does not give any allowance to move the model in question.

Good to know.

Along these lines then, issuing a challenge would not guarantee the opposing character since only the challenging models are moved up to be in base to base. Other models could still be in base to base with the MSS holder, correct?

Unholyllama wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Any model in base contact could be selected at random to be affected by MSS. This includes the Prime. Declining a challenge does not give any allowance to move the model in question.

Good to know.

Along these lines then, issuing a challenge would not guarantee the opposing character since only the challenging models are moved up to be in base to base. Other models could still be in base to base with the MSS holder, correct?

No. No one else can be in B2B, even if their models are. Covered in the rules for Challenges.

Chrysis wrote:

Unholyllama wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Any model in base contact could be selected at random to be affected by MSS. This includes the Prime. Declining a challenge does not give any allowance to move the model in question.

Good to know.

Along these lines then, issuing a challenge would not guarantee the opposing character since only the challenging models are moved up to be in base to base. Other models could still be in base to base with the MSS holder, correct?

No. No one else can be in B2B, even if their models are. Covered in the rules for Challenges.

Ok. That's what I thought challenges worked but wanted to double check as it relates to this. Thanks.

Nothing in the base rule states the coward isn't able to be targeted for hits, special powers or the likes but the real issue is would it be resolved as 0 hits or D3 hits.

I am going to have to lean towards yes, using the priority of rule argument. Codex trump rulebook whenever a situation occurs where the two are in conflict. It is the rule book stating the coward can not strike blows, while the codex is stating the model inflict automatic hits. Even accepting the argument that strike blows means hits of any type, the codex still trumps because it has higher priority.

but doesn't MSS require the target to skip their normal attacks?
They have no normal attacks to skip...

rigeld2 wrote:
but doesn't MSS require the target to skip their normal attacks?
They have no normal attacks to skip...

Attacks done while under the influence of MSS are considered the attack for the fight sub-phase. It's not that it's skipped, the attacks just aren't against an opponent.

But they go off when the model would normally swing, right?
What initiative?

They go off when a model would normally attack, so if you choose to give up your attacks you couldnt then make any. AS it is an "instead of" - they have no normal attacks so have nothing they can do "instead of"

So, if I am understanding this correctly, a model with MSS is in base contact with the enemy character and not with anyone else.

The challenge is called, and the enemy character refuses. Therefore since the enemy character can not attack MSS has no effect in this turn of close combat.

Am I understanding correctly?

Yes - although in the OPs scenario the character was one option for MSS. If he was randomly selected MSS would do nothing from my understanding - but I don't have my codex with me for wording

I've always played it as a declining challenger that's been hit by MSS will inflict no hits. It's an unlucky roll but at least usually declining challengers aren't equipped well.

MSS is at the beginning of the phase, same time as challenges,

whoevers turn it is gets to decide what order to do things,

issue challenges, MSS, and anything else that goes off simultaniously.

should they choose to have MSS go after challenges, where in this case the refusal of the challenge forces the MSS holder out of BTB with another model, it then doesnt get to use MSS as that model isnt in BTB. so would have to chose another model in BTB or not go off if there are none.

if MSS goes off before the challenge is declined, and before the challenge the MSS guy is in BTB with a lone model to have MSS affect, then they are still affected, but they also cannot attack.

Easysause, models that refuse a challenge aren't moved at all. If one is in base to base when it refuses, it's still there afterwords.

 easysauce wrote:
where in this case the refusal of the challenge forces the MSS holder out of BTB with another model

You don't physically move models when a challenge is accepted or declined.

You do if you accept.

You are supposed to swap the challenger for a model in base contact with the challengee, or vice-versa if there are none. Or with models as close as possible.

None which affects the OP since they already are in physical contact, but it's only if you decline that no models are 'moved'.

 Shandara wrote:
You do if you accept.

Right, sorry - since it was irrelevant in this case it slipped my mind.

 easysauce wrote:
MSS is at the beginning of the phase, same time as challenges,

whoevers turn it is gets to decide what order to do things,

issue challenges, MSS, and anything else that goes off simultaniously.

should they choose to have MSS go after challenges, where in this case the refusal of the challenge forces the MSS holder out of BTB with another model, it then doesnt get to use MSS as that model isnt in BTB. so would have to chose another model in BTB or not go off if there are none.

if MSS goes off before the challenge is declined, and before the challenge the MSS guy is in BTB with a lone model to have MSS affect, then they are still affected, but they also cannot attack.

sorry, read the OP wrong, I thought the two models were not already in BTB, so denial of challenge meant denial of the challenge move into BTB, hence no MSS on the other model in BTB.

either way, a model who refuses a challenge may not strike blows, so even if the MSS controls it, it still isnt striking any blows.

Reading through some of the latest posts there seems to be a bit of confusion and I want to simplify my interpretation of everything said thus far.



1. If a challenge is accepted, MSS only applies withing the two combatants locked into said challenge. If a 2nd model is in base to base, it is not part of the randomly selected model FAQ'ed rule of MSS.

2. If both characters are in base to base and the challenge is declined, the coward may still be affected by MSS.


Here is the question that I think still needs answered since I see 2 different answers on this in the thread.

With regards to #2 above - would MSS still inflict D3 hits onto the unit or would it be 0?


My interpretation is it would still do D3 because Codex trumps BRB but am curious on how others interpret this.

I lean the same way you do but we might have to accept we are in the majority here.

I have yet to see an argument as to why the two rules are not in conflict, which is required to prevent the codex trump rule. It seems pretty straight forward that there is a conflict, we have one rule stating you can not attack and another rule stating you deal automatic attacks. Maybe there is a way to twist it to apply both rules without conflict and still come to the 0 answer, but I have yet to see it.

"Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits..."
If the model can't attack normally, how can it inflicts the D3 hits?

 grendel083 wrote:
"Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits..."
If the model can't attack normally, how can it inflicts the D3 hits?

The same way a model without a shooting attack can run?