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On the back of another thread, I was thinking about the poorly worded astral aim. The quote below is one that I think sums the rule in question up well. I believe it is the right reading. it is also what makes me wonder about purgators.

 Shandara wrote:
Their cover save means the one they are using when the time comes to save wounds.

When determining (cover) saves, if you have multiple, you are instructed to use the best (in case of saves, the lowest numerical value).

If someone is in area terrain but obscured by ruins, they get both a 5+ and a 4+ cover save.

The best is obviously the 4+ (not it is lower numerically), so that is the one they will use, i.e. _their_ cover save.

GtG improves that.

Using Astral Aim grants the unit you shoot at an unmodifiable 4+ cover save.
(and allows you to shoot at anyone, even without LOS and disallows stealth and shrouded when gained from night fight special rules [that's how it was FAQed].)

1) So what if the unit you are shooting at is behind a 3+ cover wall? Does that mean they take a 3+ modifiable cover save over the 4+ unmodifiable?
2) If they are behind a 4+ cover wall, do they take that over the unmodifiable one?
3) If they are behind a 5+ cover but have stealth and shrouded, can they choose to take that modified cover save instead, as it is better with the modifications?

I believe the RAI is "you get a 4+, but you always get a 4+, nothing else."
But the RAW doesn't seem to support this.

No, the RAI and the RAW are that the unit gets a 4+ unmodifiable cover save from these shooting attacks.

If the unit is also getting a better cover save (from being behind a ADL and going to ground, for example), then it would use the better cover save, the exact same way you use ruin wall cover saves over the 5+ area terrain cover save you also can get from being in a ruin...you use your best save available.

Astral Aim allows you to shoot units that you can't see, it is not designed to ignore cover, if it were it would say that like so many other abilities in the past did (such as Hive Guard or Tau Smart Missile Systems).

 yakface wrote:

No, the RAI and the RAW are that the unit gets a 4+ unmodifiable cover save from these shooting attacks.

If the unit is also getting a better cover save (from being behind a ADL and going to ground, for example), then it would use the better cover save, the exact same way you use ruin wall cover saves over the 5+ area terrain cover save you also can get from being in a ruin...you use your best save available.

Astral Aim allows you to shoot units that you can't see, it is not designed to ignore cover, if it were it would say that like so many other abilities in the past did (such as Hive Guard or Tau Smart Missile Systems).

There is a difference in that it actually provides you with cover. The difference being that they can't very well say "it ignores cover and gives cover."
That would make people argue if it ignores the cover it provides instead.

The way it is now, the cover it provides is practically only for people you CAN see. Models that are out in the open. Models that you don't use Astral Aim for.
Any ruin gives a 4+ MODIFIABLE save. So any wall that obscures a target (which is why we use astral aim) is going to give a better cover save than the one provided by the skill itself. What's the point of that?

Since we're partly talking RAI, the fluff explains it as the shots going around or over obstacles. As in shots being guided. Looking at the skill, I'd say the RAI is that if I shoot with this, it will sort of give you ignores cover, except that it at the same time provides you with a cover save. However, it's this set number because NOTHING makes it harder for the grey knight to guide the shot.

I think the RAW is as you say. I don't believe for a second the RAI supports it. But obviously RAI can never be proven and is only speculation.

Is this ability for just those situations where you are using indirect fire at a target in the open?

Because, the way it is reading here, it seems using it against anything else would be giving them an advantage.

It basically allows you to shoot a unit you cannot see, one that is completely out of LoS. In exchange, the unit benefits from a 4+ cover(that cannot be modified)

They may qualify for other saves as normal.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It basically allows you to shoot a unit you cannot see, one that is completely out of LoS. In exchange, the unit benefits from a 4+ cover(that cannot be modified)

They may qualify for other saves as normal.

My problem with it is that they will practically always qualify for a better save, so the only point of the 4+ unmodifiable is to give a save to units in the open, which you would not use astral aim for anyway.

 Purifier wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It basically allows you to shoot a unit you cannot see, one that is completely out of LoS. In exchange, the unit benefits from a 4+ cover(that cannot be modified)

They may qualify for other saves as normal.

My problem with it is that they will practically always qualify for a better save, so the only point of the 4+ unmodifiable is to give a save to units in the open, which you would not use astral aim for anyway.

Sure you would - if you couldn't see them otherwise (Rhino blocking LoS to a Relic carrying unit for example).

rigeld2 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It basically allows you to shoot a unit you cannot see, one that is completely out of LoS. In exchange, the unit benefits from a 4+ cover(that cannot be modified)

They may qualify for other saves as normal.

My problem with it is that they will practically always qualify for a better save, so the only point of the 4+ unmodifiable is to give a save to units in the open, which you would not use astral aim for anyway.

Sure you would - if you couldn't see them otherwise (Rhino blocking LoS to a Relic carrying unit for example).

Well, that's not in the open, but a rhino does only give a 5+ cover save, so your point still stands... I keep finding that everything I shoot at gets shrouded/stealth or jink, but then, I play a lot against a tau player.

Take an Inquisitor or two with Psychic abilities for Divination. "Perfect Timing" is a good way to avoid cover save situations. It is still a random generation, but can be powerful.

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:
Take an Inquisitor or two with Psychic abilities for Divination. "Perfect Timing" is a good way to avoid cover save situations. It is still a random generation, but can be powerful.

I already take an inquisitor for the ridiculously powerful primaris power in divination, and taking both HQ for one unit is not really viable
I could take a level 2 Librarian though, which would give 2 chances of rolling the Perfect Timing power... But that's not YMDC anymore.

I think it has been made abundantly clear what the RAW is here, and that my hopes for someone having seen something I didn't were futile. Thanks for the answers.