Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Played against Rich last night, both of us are test modified lists. I am at my wit's end with CSM now and doing some final tests before I ditch them.

** Before anyone says anything, I am not putting this report up to gloat or anything. I am putting it up hoping to get some thoughts and feedback on my list and if I could perhaps use CSM Rhino Rush in a better way.

Chaos Space Marines

HQ

Abaddon the Despoiler

Troops

5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns
5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns
5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns
5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x plasma guns
5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x plasma guns
5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x plasma guns

Fast Attac

Heldrake - baleflamer
Heldrake - baleflamer
4 x Chaos Spawn - mark of nurgle

Heavy Support

5 x Havocs - autocannons
5 x Havocs - autocannons
5 x Havocs - autocannons

Blood Angels

HQ

Librarian - jump pack, shield of sanguinus & unleash rage

Elite

Sanguinary Priest - bike & lightning claw
Sanguinary Priest - jump pack & lightning claw

Troops

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns - Sgt w/ lightning claw
10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns - Sgt w/ lightning claw
10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns - Sgt w/ lightning claw

Fast Attack

9 x Bikes w/ Attack Bike - 2 x plasma guns
4 x Bikes - 2 x meltaguns

Heavy Support

Stormraven Gunship - twin-linked lascannon & twin-linked multi melta
5 x Devastators - 4 x missile launchers
5 x Devastators - 4 x missile launchers

Fortifications

Aegis Defence Line - quad gun

Game hammer & anvil + emperor's will

Deployment

We have both put our objectives in the centre as my Rhino Rush wants to get close as does Rich's Assault Marines. My objective is in a large centre ruin and Rich's isn't far from my long table edge in open ground.

I win the roll off for deployment and go first. I put the Rhinos carrying plasma at the front, Abaddon in the middle and then the melta Rhinos behind. I've got a little bit of cover on one Rhino from the large ruin. Spawn deploy to the right behind the ruin while Havocs deploy in runs further back, two together on my short table edge and one in a large ruin on the long table edge. My entire army is deployed on the left flank.

Rich has placed his ADL on the left flank and the two Dev units behind it. He crams all Assault Marines behind the ADL while Bikes break down into combat squads and go on my right flank.

Turn 1

Rich manages to seize and goes first - this suits me fine as he will come towards me which will put him in range and means his Stormraven will be coming in before my Heldrake. Pity there's no night fighting as my Rhinos would get some form of cover save.

Rich speeds the bikes towards the centre ruin and it is just that and a few inches splitting them from the Chaos Spawn, luckily they are out of assault range. All Assault Marines come bounding over the ADL.

Shooting; Rich runs his Assault Marines and gets a 1-2-3 for the units, so not great. He does manage to get first blood after the Devs with the quad gun wreck a Rhino (squad passes pinning) and the other Devs score weapon destroyed and stunned on another. Bikes shoot at the Chaos Spawn though thanks to good saves I only lose a single wound.

CSM; Chaos Spawn move through terrain towards the oncoming bike unit, there's more bikes behind but if I can tackle one and then use the Chaos Spawn to bait Rich then that means I won't have the tough mass bikers roaming about. Chosen out their ride walk up while Rhinos advance moving 12" where possible. Stunned Rhino pops smoke. Abaddon moves up.

Shooting; Havocs on the long table edge dakka the quad gun and score two wounds on it and Rich fails them both - no interceptor or skyfire for Rich from that, he tends to get lucky with that damn thing. Chosen on foot fire into some Assault Marines and the Havocs add more support - I kill four and Assault Marines pass morale test. All Rhinos move flat out, one comes in front of Abaddon to block LOS to him.

Assault; Chaos Spawn charge the bikes, I get the ability to roll 2D6 attacks and I get a 6 - that's 8 attacks each, that's 32 attacks! Needless to say the Chaos Spawn own the bikes and the unit is destroyed, the Chaos Spawn consolidate back into the ruin for cover, but their bases are not completely in area terrain so easy to charge next turn.

*Tactical Notes

Not a too bad start; I haven't done much shooting damage to Rich as a whole but hopefully I have set things up as that damn quad gun has gone. I just need to worry about the Stormraven and snap firing Devs against my Heldrake.

Chaos Spawn have done ok but I have a feeling they are going to feel some pain now. Considering how cheap they are they have probably just made their points back already.

Next turn I'll bail out Chosen and unleash fire power and on whatever isn't engaged in close combat while Havocs fire into the Devs. Abaddon will counter charge any Assault Marines who have come too close.

Turn 2

Rich rolls reserves and the Stormraven comes in, in comes down the left flank and Rich uses a bit of pre-measuring to make sure it won't fall victim to vector strikes.

Blood Angels; bikers roll up to the Chaos Spawn while Assault Marines close on me.

Shooting; both biker units dakka the Chaos Spawn and two Chaos Spawn drop to a single wound each. Meltas fire into a Rhino by my long table edge and miss as Rich rolls snake eyes, Devs have to do the job and blow it up which a Chosen and Assault Marine dies from shrapnel. Other Devs fire into another Rhino and that goes boom as well, everyone is ok after armour saves. Stormraven fires multi melta and missiles into a Rhino and totals it while lascannon fluffs.

Assault; melta unit charges with Priest into Chosen from the exploded Rhino on my table edge, an Assault Marine dies to overwatch and combat ends up going south for me. Another unit of Assault Marines multi charge the Chosen unit who got blown out of their tank first turn and another this turn (both plasma units), they make it, though the Librarian's unit fails - I lose combat by 1 after my Champion gets stabbed by a lightning claw, though I pass morale. Bikers charge the Chaos Spawn and I roll a 6 again for attacks, I lose a Spawn though at the end of combat and another is on a single wound.

I roll reserves and a single Heldrake arrives. I move it from short edge bottom right corner and it stops over the centre ruin - Librarian's unit is going to get roasted!

CSM; Abaddon moves up to the large unit of Assault Marines who are decking two plasma units. I attempt to move a melta Rhino through terrain and it gets immobilised, squad bails out and moves through terrain to dakka the Libbies unit. Stunned Rhino is now working, it moves up, dudes bail out with meltas aimed at the Priest's unit who just murdered my Chosen.

Shooting; bolters and meltas fire into Libbies unit and after cover/armour saves a single Assault Marine dies. Havocs and melta Chosen dakka the Priest's unit, they go to ground to stay alive and a single Assault Marine and Priest remains - they pass morale. Libbies unit gets blasted by Heldrake and Libby is at the front, Rich does look out, sir on eight wounds, though rolls several 1's and the Libby is dead along with pretty much the entire squad - two Marines remain who fail morale and fall back.

Assault; Abaddon joins the fight and challenges the Sgt, who accepts and gets destroyed by the talon of horus with a nice 7 attacks on the charge with 3+ to hit with re-rolls and 2+ to wound with re-rolls with AP2, 'ave it Assault Marines fail morale after losing combat and attempt to fall back, I roll a 6 and catch them and they remain locked - bad times for the Blood Angels and Abaddon is going to waste them with his daemon weapon. Spawn manage to beat the bikers, one unit fails and flees while the Priest's unit holds.

*Tactical Notes

I think things have turned around nicely for me; Assault Marines are dropping like flies and bikes are still tied up with my Chaos Spawn.

Next turn I'll use the Heldrake to vector strike the Stormraven and burn the Devs while Abaddon finishes off the Assault Marines and will move to assist the Chaos Spawn.

Turn 3

Blood Angels: Bikes regroup and brandish two plasma guns towards the melta Chosen in terrain. Two Assault Marines regroup and take a wound from soul blaze, pass armour save, but still on fire.

Shooting; bikes blast the melta Chosen and Rich rolls 3 1's, he then fails his armour saves and the unit has just killed itself . I can't laugh too much as the Heldrake gets shot at by Devs and the Stormraven and I fail every single invulnerable I am required to make and it comes crashing down, luckily scatters away from the melta Chosen in terrain and Chaos Spawn.

Assault; the two soul blaze Assault Marines charge melta Chosen, I lose a Chosen though Rich fails both armour saves and the squad is destroyed. Abaddon uses the daemon weapon and rolls 3 for extra attacks - that's a total of 8 attacks which I hit all thanks to pref enemy: space marines and then wipe out the entire squad with just Abaddon. Units consolidate towards the Stormraven and Devs. Chaos Spawn start dropping and I am down to two now, though I roll a 6 again for attacks and get poison

I roll for reserves and the last Heldrake fails to arrive.

CSM: Rich had dropped the Stormraven into hover mode (I did advise him this was a bad idea), this was so he would shoot at the Heldrake more easier as I had parked the Heldrake about 8" away from him if that. Abaddon moves up hoping to thump the Stormraven while all Chosen move up to support.

Shooting; Havocs dakka the Devs and three of them die, they pass morale. Remaining Havocs dakka the Stormraven and take off a hull point as does a melta shot from some Chosen. Plasma and bolters fire into the full strength Devs, they go to ground and two of them die if I remember right - they pass morale.

Assault; Abaddon charges and destroyes the Stormraven. Chaos Spawn this time get a 4+ armour save and 5 attacks, bikes remain engaged.

At this point Rich calls it a game as he has no troops left and my Chosen have swarmed both objectives. Plus next turn my Chosen can engaged his Devs in close combat while Havocs dakka them and Abaddon can assault the remaining bikers. More than likely I would table Rich as he has about a total of 5 Devs left and 5 bikes including the Attack Bike.

Summary

The Chosen Rhino Rush list gives me what I want; dual special weapons and more attacks. The LD9 still remains the same, Plague Marines would be better overall but a lot more expensive.

Abaddon's pref enemy did really well for me, though I know this is situational. In close combat Abaddon mauled everything, in total Abaddon destroyed an Assault Squad on his own (about 200 points) and a Stormraven with some assistance. I do like Abaddon, but he is very expensive and I can see against a static opponent I would have to deepstrike which leaves me at the mercy of reserve rolls.

Rhinos went down like cheap hookers in this game. I am not sure what is happening to them, maybe they are D.E Venoms in a Rhino dress? I still like my Rhinos though as they give me mobility and some degree of small arms fire protection.

I am still not 100% decided on CSM. They still feel like a no frills army with nothing special. Only Abaddon felt 'cool' thanks to the preferred enemy bubble and that is situational. I can't miss Chaos Spawn out, they are really good and if I do stick with CSM I'll be keeping them.

Personally I find Rhinos full of only 5 models a waste, if you put 10 in one then you'd save points on the rhinos you get to cut from the list. I do see how that means that you can be in more places at once but I just see to many Rhinos as a way for your enemy to win in a kill point battle.

Still, play as you like, you did do really well in this battle, but it sounds like you didn't like how the army played this way so maybe changes are just what you need to your list. Sadly as C:SM player I can't offer more ideas for you CSM list.

@ Mercer, been critising your last list pretty hard, but i think this is as good as you can get rhino rush, the only thing i would change is that i would give abbadon a cultits meatshield and max the spawns out

I love how Rhinos went from the Adamantine armored troop carriers of the 41st millenium in 5th edition to card board box parodies in 6th edition.

If his SR drops to hover mode it counts in all ways as a skimmer so he loses skyfire making hid decision to do so on his turn 3 all the more idiotic.

I personally would have DS abby in his back nine, can't criticize the list too much though as BA absolutely suck in 6th and the helldrake pretty much auto wins this match for you especially when you take two lol.

fun read however though I still think you are building 5th ed lists. Your spending 210 in rhinos and 120 to make your marines chosen (18 compared to 14) plus the Abbadon tax. Abbadon is awesome in assault, but that's not saying much when you are paying more then a wraith knight have no ranged attack worth noting and are slower then feth

The Claw is AP3... Wouldn't have mattered versus the 3+.

Good game.

Ecstasy in Service wrote:Personally I find Rhinos full of only 5 models a waste, if you put 10 in one then you'd save points on the rhinos you get to cut from the list. I do see how that means that you can be in more places at once but I just see to many Rhinos as a way for your enemy to win in a kill point battle.

Still, play as you like, you did do really well in this battle, but it sounds like you didn't like how the army played this way so maybe changes are just what you need to your list. Sadly as C:SM player I can't offer more ideas for you CSM list.

5 models, 10 models, not going to make much difference really as still a Rhino carrying them.

And yes, I didn't like how they played; they are too meh and only cool bit is Abaddon giving preferred ene,y.

Valek wrote:@ Mercer, been critising your last list pretty hard, but i think this is as good as you can get rhino rush, the only thing i would change is that i would give abbadon a cultits meatshield and max the spawns out

I think you are right dude

Spartan089 wrote:I love how Rhinos went from the Adamantine armored troop carriers of the 41st millenium in 5th edition to card board box parodies in 6th edition.

yes it's weird funny.

Red Corsair wrote:If his SR drops to hover mode it counts in all ways as a skimmer so he loses skyfire making hid decision to do so on his turn 3 all the more idiotic.

I personally would have DS abby in his back nine, can't criticize the list too much though as BA absolutely suck in 6th and the helldrake pretty much auto wins this match for you especially when you take two lol.

fun read however though I still think you are building 5th ed lists. Your spending 210 in rhinos and 120 to make your marines chosen (18 compared to 14) plus the Abbadon tax. Abbadon is awesome in assault, but that's not saying much when you are paying more then a wraith knight have no ranged attack worth noting and are slower then feth

When I checked the rulebook it says flyers chose whether to use skyfire or not. When dropping to hover they only move like a skimmer, so wouldn't lose skyfire. And yes, I did tell him not to drop it down into skimmer.

I have deep striked Abaddon many times and it doesn't work so well. Factor in reserves and scatter, too much for a 265 point model to be sitting out the game or scattering where you do not want him to go.

Yup, Heldrakes have it easy for me against a list like this.

What can I say? I like tanks, it's what I have and I've got a wedding to pay for