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I recently played my first game of 6th edition. It was 1000 points, and I was playing against 500 points each of Eldar and imperial guard, with my Ultramarines. I was completely unprepared, expecting to play 1500 points. Nonetheless, I made a list compromised of: 5 terminators with a cml., assault squad with chaplain, a tactical squad in a rhino, one with a plascannon in some ruins, and a thunderfire cannon.

The rhino got popped turn 1, so the assault squad had no cover, the tactical squad got thrown out and the assault squad and the tac squad got destroyed. The second tactical squad did nothing, being out of range. The thunderfire cannon did well, however they only have one wound and died quickly. The terminators were saved till last and eventually they got wiped out by sheer power. I got tabled in turn 6.

The imperial guard had 3 tanks. One Leman Russ, and 2 transport tanks, which were still there by end of the game. I had almost no anti tank, and tanks were the only things I could see. The eldar waited until I was weak, and then wiped me out. The eldar had some of the wraith blades shooty counterpart, a farseer with that str 3 haywire flesh bane HERETIC ABILITY!!!!!!! It was responsible for killing a rhino, 1 tactical squad and half of an assault squad. I gave up hope at about turn 2 because I had no idea how to play against eldar and they were so versatile! AP2 shots! Tanks! cover! Multilasers! It wasn't funny.

I have a variety of models and proxies. I want to know if there is a way to combat the eldar, and if there is anything I can do to get the tactical advantage. Basically this is meant to be thread of tactics for Ultramarines against eldar, Mainly at 1000 points, but also at other points like 1500 or 1750, and the kind of tactics and limits that apply to a small 48" by 48" table.

While I can't speak for Ultramarines, I do play Eldar.
What I can suggest is that you pay close attention to matters of targeting priority. Eldar tend to be specialists. If you focus first on the Eldar units capable of breaking through your 3+ armor, things will go much better for you. Dark Reapers should be a priority target for any marine army. Ditto Fire Dragons and Howling Banshees. If your enemy is silly enough to run Banshees, there is never a reason you should allow them to live long enough to charge you.

Once you've dealt with the units specifically designed to hose you, you can prioritize things like Dire Avengers, which will pierce your armor on a 6 to wound.

In the case of Wraithlords (and Wraithknights), it's a waste of time to throw out, say, one melta shot at it per turn. A monstrous creature with one wound remaining is just as deadly as one at full health. Don't take half measures. If you mean to kill them, don't stop until they are dead. If you can't kill them with what you have, consider what else you might more profitably direct that anti-tank fire towards. The same goes for wave serpents: chances are, you're never going to get a penetrating hit against one, and you'll lose at least half your hits to cover saves. When you shoot it, devote enough fire power to kill it.

Don't get distracted shooting at the wrong things. Once you've removed all the most critical tools from the Eldar force and your opponent has nothing but bad options to hit you with, things will go much more smoothly.

Marsyas:

When your opponent fields 3-4 Serpents with guardians and a Farseer at 1000 points, you will barely hurt him with Space marines toys. Hell, I could not destroy more than 1 Serpent even with my vendettas for the whole game...

Smaller games tend to be harder to pick balanced armies for because points are at a premium so its harder to pick a force that you are comfortable with. As it was you had to pick a force on the fly, as it were, so you seem to have been caught unprepared. you are asking the right questions though, but your list seems to be 'generally' quite weak, especially in the anti tank area as you yourself pointed out.

Librarians are the best HQ unit you can take because they are a massive force multiplier, and unless you trade in your powers for book ones, you can choose which abilities you have (at least until the new codex comes out) Gate of infinity and nullzone are the most useful imo

Assault squads are fun, but one of the weakest chices in the codex, its a sucky situation i know, but thats how the cookie crumbles. even with a chaplain an assault squad is a very very poor choice, unless you build your entire strategy around it, and even then, random charge distances and overwatch will often hose you.

Since 1000 points games force you to think carefully about points, getting the proper equipment on your tac squads is important, keep them as cheap as possible, but as effective as possible. Las/plas units are good, and you can also get multi meltas for free, which is fantastic good value. additional firepower in the form of razorbacks is brilliant, because a TL H/Bolter at 5 points more than a rhino is a steal

Heavy support should be thought about carefully. one of the most cost effective heavy choices is the autolas predator, but in smaller battles squeezing in 2 dakka predators can be really intimidating as well. ultimately, you want to try to maximise your firepower, and include powerful (counter) assault units.

Tactical terminators are perfect for that, i prefer the assault cannon due to rending and i use terminators to chase after infantry more than i do tanks (the assault cannon can still one shot a landraider though )

Other good choices at 1k are attack bikes because fast multi meltas are always fun, and i've had a lot of luck with scouts in a LS storm more recently.

What you should do is take the lessons you have learned from your last battle, and try to optimise a 1000 point list. quite a few things have changed in the edition changeover though, so quite a few tactics that worked in 5th will fail hard in 6th

re: wave serpents
Even standard marines can damage a wave serpent in an assault on a 6 to wound.

Yes they can but Wave Serpents are highly mobile and so this will be very difficult if not nigh impossible.

TFC have 3 wounds, 2 on the gun, 1 on the techmarine, so they're tougher than you think.

I haven't played against the new Eldar, so I can't comment much more. Assault termies might do better with their 3++. A single rhino will die quickly for sure. I'd try a drop pod list if they're not loaded with interceptors like the Tau.

I wish I had known that about the thunderfire cannons before. A couple more rounds of shooting would have been a big help.

Thinking about the librarian now, it would have been a big help. I couuld have moved the tactical squad hiding in the ruins to better make use of them, got the terminators an AP 3 flamer, or bolstered the assault squad. I am in dire need of some str 10 or AP 1 so the Vortex of Doom would have made my life a lot easier.

Like I said before, I really need some lascannons or meltas with a fast delivery system. Does anyone know of any cost effective ways of taking out AV 13? Would some MM/flamer landspeeders do the trick as suicide units, or would they just get destroyed?

Also, are there any units that constantly foil the eldar? Something like librarians with the avenger, or flamers, meltas, or anything I dont know about?

As for the dakka preds, we were playing wysiwyg, or as close to it as possible, and I have no tanks. I will have to borrow some off someone else.

I was constantly stuffed in the shooting phase, because all I could see was the tanks of the IG. The only unit I damaged was the 1 unit of Dire avengers with the TFC, and after that it got destroyed.

I still don’t have much of an idea on how to combat the eldar on a regular basis. That is something I will need to know if I am going to keep playing, because so many more eldar players will surface. If you guys could go into more detail about tactics and strategy, that would be really appreciated.

In my experience, MM landspeeders have trouble because turn 1 they're out of range of the Eldar vehicles, and turn 2 they're either dead from concentrated fire on the Eldar player's first (or second) turn, or are firing into 4+ cover saves.

3 whirlwinds. I've been using them much to the consternation of my local tau players.hit the PFs & tetras first, then obliterate there scoring units. They can fire from behind full cover, wound eldar on a 2+, deny half their army a armor save & cause pinning. 3 of them also cost 255. After that use drop pod sterngaurd (wich you should always be using) to eliminate spooky stuff. Id say a 5 man pod with plas for MCs or Lysander using hellfire. Second 5 man sternpod with combi-melta for anti-tank. 3rd pod with combat squaded tac sqd. Try to land in cover if facing ap3. Librarians can help with psychic buffs & DtW.

The reason I chose thunderfire cannons was that they deny cover. Don't whirlwinds have something like that too? This Eldar player always plays near cover. Should I get some bikes with some meltas and flamers? They have high toughness and rapid fire bolters and a 5+ jink save.

I only have 5 dark angels sternguard which I can convert into ultrasmurfs. For 1000 points, should I just equip them with combi meltas and make them suicide units? Or should I use a librarian to teleport them around.

Ork Marine wrote:
I wish I had known that about the thunderfire cannons before. A couple more rounds of shooting would have been a big help.

Thinking about the librarian now, it would have been a big help. I couuld have moved the tactical squad hiding in the ruins to better make use of them, got the terminators an AP 3 flamer, or bolstered the assault squad. I am in dire need of some str 10 or AP 1 so the Vortex of Doom would have made my life a lot easier.

Like I said before, I really need some lascannons or meltas with a fast delivery system. Does anyone know of any cost effective ways of taking out AV 13? Would some MM/flamer landspeeders do the trick as suicide units, or would they just get destroyed?

Also, are there any units that constantly foil the eldar? Something like librarians with the avenger, or flamers, meltas, or anything I dont know about?

As for the dakka preds, we were playing wysiwyg, or as close to it as possible, and I have no tanks. I will have to borrow some off someone else.

I was constantly stuffed in the shooting phase, because all I could see was the tanks of the IG. The only unit I damaged was the 1 unit of Dire avengers with the TFC, and after that it got destroyed.

I still don’t have much of an idea on how to combat the eldar on a regular basis. That is something I will need to know if I am going to keep playing, because so many more eldar players will surface. If you guys could go into more detail about tactics and strategy, that would be really appreciated.

The big issue that I see, is that you are focusing on the Eldar. But it sounds like it was the Imperial Guard who beat you. As you noted it was the Guard Vehicles you couldn't destroy, and the Eldar just pounced on you after you flailed against the Imperial Armour. Its a combination of things really, and I would play some 1 v 1 games vs Eldar before you worry about them too much.

Wave Serpents are tough to destroy especially if they keep up their shield which knocks penetrating hits to a glance on a 2+. As a result you will generally want higher rate of fire than anything else. Eldar don't have any av13+ so that isn't a problem. Mid Strength anti tank in large numbers is the best way to kill eldar tanks. As for actually kiling av13, Bikers are really good with 2 melta guns and a multi melta attack bike, they can be scoring as well with Captain on a Bike. Drop Pods with Melta Gunners or combi melta stern guard are also effective at assassinating heavy tanks.

As for units that consistantly foil the Eldar.
- Dakka Dreads. This is a dreadnought with 2 twin linked auto cannons. Its got 4 s7 shots and it re-rolls misses, perfect for getting a lot of hits and throwing some glancing / Penetrating hits on the Eldar skimmers. Also remember that Eldar generally rely on s6, which means they might have some trouble punching through the Dread's armour from long range!
- Librarians are good, as the psychic hood can help protect nearby squads, but don't rely on it since the Farseer has a higher masterly level.
- Bikers are also fairly solid against Eldar, Since they have the range to quickly catch and destroy most eldar units in close combat, they also have impressive fire power on the way in, and Eldar don't have many means of ignoring cover, so your Jink Saves will protect you.
- Stern Guard are great agaisnt All Eldar Infantry. For example, if your opponent likes the Wraith units, you can lol him off the table with 2+ poison rounds! If your opponent likes cover hugging stealth monglers you've got cover ignoring rounds! If you take several squads of sternguard remember to add in Pedro to make them all Scoring.
- Thunder Fire Cannons are also an excellent unit. Very solid.

excellent. That was exactly what I was looking for.

With all of the people trying out Eldar, I will be happy to give them a game and see how they play and how I can improve.

Ork Marine wrote:

I still don’t have much of an idea on how to combat the eldar on a regular basis. That is something I will need to know if I am going to keep playing, because so many more eldar players will surface. If you guys could go into more detail about tactics and strategy, that would be really appreciated.

All armies have strenghts and weaknesses. the Eldar's main strength is also their weakness. aside from vehicles which can generally put out a lot of S6 shots, their infantry is on the whole optimised for a single role at the cost of being weak at most others. Dark reapers excell at putting MEQ's down hard, can threaten transports, but generally lack the strength to threaten full on tanks. Fire dragons excell at killing tanks, but are short ranged. Dire avengers are great for killing GEQ, can threaten MEQ, but lack anything in the way of anti tank ability.

eldar vehicles, while they can be a pain to kill because of jink saves and so forth, are limited to AV12, which means that a large number of weapons can at the very least glance them. even scouts with sniper rifles stand a (small) chance of downing a wave serpent, for example. the same weapons that can damage eldar vehicles (assault cannons, auto cannons etc) can also kill the majority of eldar infantry. there are a few units that will get the full save, but the majority won't.

Eldar also have some very tough units in the form of wraithguard, and wraithlords. but the weapons you can use to kill MEQ's, Medium tanks, and other tough targets, can also be used on them, so plasma guns, lascannons etc will knock them down.

I will agree with a previous poster, it was the guard tanks that really did you in, rather than the eldar, and that was because your list didn't have much, or anything, really, in the way of anti tank. the same weapons that will down a falcon or wave serpent, will knock out a chimera, and Leman russ tanks while they have good armour are vulnerable to high strenth weapons, and melta guns. having fast hard hitting units can often help you. My presonal favourites for dealing with pesky tanks , are tanks of my own (autolas preds) terminators with a librarian GOI and hit their rear armour if you can, assault the next turn if you have to. a squad of tactical terminators in the enemies back field is a handful at the best of times!

Essentially, what i think your loss boils down to more than any tactical incompetence on your part is that you had a poor list to face the force you were up against, any of: predators, rifleman dreads, attack bikes with MM's, will see you having sufficient firepower to deal with any tanks the eldar can field, and indeed threaten a lot of other units from other armies. Rifleman dreads also deserve a special mention because they can also double as AA units with their dual, TL autocannons.

I have to agree with you that thunderfire cannons are great, but i prefer whirlwinds because they are a barrage weapon so you don't need LOS to fire them, and unless in area terrain you can ignore cover saves a lot of the time

I will say that stenpods tend toward a suicide squad. When you land them its important to keep in mind whatcounter attack they will suffer, can they get cover & what's the best location for them to land? There may be an interceptor unit that will get a shot at them before they even get a chance to fire. Your landing first turn so most of your opponents army will be there for a counter attack. You can land a pod in cover, even on a ruin for protection. The cover can even hamper a counter charge by drasticly slowing down there movement & charge distance. Take it from me on that one. When you land them a suicide move may be their best move. Liquifying a monolith turn 1 could be worth it, even if a 20 strong Lord lead squads gonna counterattack next turn. At lower points, like 1k, I don't think the counter will be that nasty. Sterngaurd are still meq & marine vets so their pretty solid too.

 akaean wrote:
As for units that consistantly foil the Eldar.
- Dakka Dreads. This is a dreadnought with 2 twin linked auto cannons. Its got 4 s7 shots and it re-rolls misses, perfect for getting a lot of hits and throwing some glancing / Penetrating hits on the Eldar skimmers. Also remember that Eldar generally rely on s6, which means they might have some trouble punching through the Dread's armour from long range!
- Librarians are good, as the psychic hood can help protect nearby squads, but don't rely on it since the Farseer has a higher masterly level.
- Bikers are also fairly solid against Eldar, Since they have the range to quickly catch and destroy most eldar units in close combat, they also have impressive fire power on the way in, and Eldar don't have many means of ignoring cover, so your Jink Saves will protect you.
- Stern Guard are great agaisnt All Eldar Infantry. For example, if your opponent likes the Wraith units, you can lol him off the table with 2+ poison rounds! If your opponent likes cover hugging stealth monglers you've got cover ignoring rounds! If you take several squads of sternguard remember to add in Pedro to make them all Scoring.
- Thunder Fire Cannons are also an excellent unit. Very solid.

I'm just going to expand those points a little. Let's see:
- First and foremost Thunderfire hurts Xenos like hell so if you want to murder Space Elves this is your go-to toy. Those will probably get weaker / pricier in the next codex. Just put it in the bolstered ruins and purge the filth. May not be so great against full Wraith / mechanized.
- Yes, sternguard ammo is very good but you have to remember that there is high chance you'll pay much more for those than the target you destroy. And yes, a TEQ squad landing close to Eldar with no other support will be bladestormed into oblivion. But that is the usual problem with deepstrikers and not anti-Eldar exclusive.
- I would be careful with bikes. It depends on what your enemy can bring. Dark Reapers now have AP3, ignore Jink saves. That means no save and no cover for you.
- Eldar were relying on S6 in the last codex, this one gives them a little more punch. Between Fire Prism and a super cheap (5 points to 45 points in the last codex) Wave Serpent Bright Lance there is a definite increase of higher Str shots. Add D6+1 S7 from each Serpent and AV12 is not that hard to crack for Eldar any more. Even guided 3 vibro cannons can easily get three S9 hits AP2 on your dread. Would not be surprised to see double lance Wraithlord walking around too. And that's only the long range. Fire Dragons and Wraithguard = wrecked vehicle.
I am not saying that Dakka Dreads are a bad choice, just don't be surprised if he adapts to those and bring something to counter them next time.

I don't think there are any hard-counters to Eldar in SM codex right now, at least nothing he can't prepare if he changes his list. So try to surprise him as often as you can.
Generally speaking more weaker shots (the mentioned S7) is better against Serpents and Thunderfire is excellent against infantry.

Would a small army, primarily devoted to staying behind an adl be viable? I was thinking about it and this list came to mind.

Librarian with the avenger and Vortex of doom, soloing and staying away from everything so as to not kill anyone else
Telion
5 scouts with plasma cannon
ADL with quad gun so telion can give his BS to the model manning it.
5 tactical marines with plasma cannon - 115 points
5 tactical marines with lascannon - 115 points
5 tactical marines with lascannon - 115 points
2 thunderfire cannons
1 whirlwind
that leaves 35 points to spare. I could get a lot of combi weapons or terminator armor for the libby.

Everything stays behind the ADL. scouts with BS6 kill fliers with TL autocannon shots. The tactical marines give a hail of plasma from 36" range. The whirlwinds wipe out covered units, and the thinderfire cannons are for kicks. The Librarian gives a str 10 AP2 template and who cares if he misfires and kills himself. I will place him away from everyone else. That is 12 templates per turn, 4 of them are str 7 or higher. 4 autocannon shots hitting and wounding on 2 and twin linked, 2 lascannons for anti tank and shooting down Meqs. For 1000 points, would that work?



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Or would an all bikes and landspeeder army work best, with lots of meltas and flamers?