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Couple of questions came up in our last game with one.

Can you shoot the building if models are in the battlements only?

What is the correct cover save for the battlements? Page reference please.

Is it correct that two models can shoot out of each fire point in the building?

1) I believe this is correct, but I'm not 100%

2) BRB FAQ:

Q. What is the armour value of battlements? (p95)
A: Battlements have no armour value as they are not a
building. They serve to protect any models on the roof of
the building in the same way as barricades and walls (see
page 104), offering a 4+ cover save.

3) BRB page 93 "Firing from Buildings" modifies the normal Fire Point rules for transport vehicles.

1) I don't think so. Models on the battlements are not embarked in the Bastion, and only an occupied building can be shot at.

Grey is correct. The unoccupied building cannot be shot at or assaulted. But you can go in then to the top fight them.

I thought the not shooting at unoccupied buildings restriction only applied to buildings that were terrain.

Since this was a fortification, I am therefore allowed to shoot at it.

Are you saying that is a fortress of redemption was unoccupied, I would not be allowed to shoot at it in order to destroy the missile launcher?

A bastion as purchased fortification is different from a Bastion as derelict terrain.

And Both are buildings, following the building rules(P.S. the Missile silo can only fire when occupied).

The Bastion with an Occupied Battlement of either variety can have the battlements shot at(vs the unit) to have them collapse and become(along with any gun emplacements) unusable, but the rest of the building must still be individually destroyed.

By the same rules the Battlements are still able to be occupied(where possible), and it's gun emplacements usable, when the base of the Bastion is destroyed.

Battlements don't have an armor value and can't be shot at.

So, the quad gun on top of a bastion can be shot at but the bastion itself cannot unless it is occupied?

Correct, the Quad-gun is a Gun Emplacement, which has a statline and can be shot at separately.

Green is Best! wrote:Are you saying that is a fortress of redemption was unoccupied, I would not be allowed to shoot at it in order to destroy the missile launcher?

Yes. You can only shoot at occupied buildings. Being a Fortification doesn't change that.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The Bastion with an Occupied Battlement of either variety can have the battlements shot at(vs the unit) to have them collapse and become(along with any gun emplacements) unusable, but the rest of the building must still be individually destroyed.

The FAQ changed Battlements, so they are no longer a building. This means they can neither be attacked nor damaged. Battlements are now just an indestructible cover save. What happens to them when the building under them is destroyed is anybody's guess.

Welcome to the wonderful world of buildings, hopefully you won't spend a day and a half figuring out how they work only to have it all FAQ'ed away too. Oh yeah, if I sound a little bitter throughout this reply that is why. I painstakingly compiled how those rules would work together, from the mess of that section, into some very good arguments then was blind sided by that FAQ. Now the battlements no longer have the 'building' flag, and with it any limitations that come from being a building! Rant aside, let answer these questions.

To begin with you need to look at page 116 which outlines the bastion itself, setting the flag that it is indeed a building and therefore follows the building rules found on page 92.

Answers:
1) You can not attack the building directly, even if the battlement is occupied.

Explained:
There is no section in the book out-right denying you to attack a building itself, but as per the standard structure of this game you need permission to do things and are only directly denied in situations where you would otherwise have permission. I won't go into the details over how the game gives you permission to attack enemy units, as how you chose targets should be a basic rule everyone here understands, but do note that a building is not considered an 'enemy unit' as per the rules on attacking. Therefore you need direct permission to attack a building, occupied or not, and page 93 grants only permission to attack buildings occupied by the enemy.

The battlement used to be considered a building in it's own right, as per the multi-part building rules found on page 92. That was FAQed away leaving it as, I don't know, open terrain with a wall in front of it. Either way the rest of the building is considered to be unoccupied by enemy forces even if a unit is in another part of the structure, such as battlements. Therefore the page 93 permissions do not extend to attacking every part of the building itself, just those with units in it.

Now battlements also had some additional rules that made attacking them directly invalid, the bold line on page 95 stating that all attacks are directed at the unit and not the building. I wish it used more clear terminology then what it did, but again welcome to buildings where the rules are a little vague, but this line is removing the page 92 permissions to attack buildings when it comes to occupied battlements. In either case, it is logical to assume if you are targeting the unit directly you can not also be targeting the building they are standing on. As that sentence highlights that the only protection the unit on the battlement has is their armor and cover saves, they clearly have no additional protection that comes from being inside a building: The AV. As there is no AV to penetrate in order to wound the unit within, one can not roll on the 'damage tables' for penetrating the buildings armor value.

This is probably why the retconned away the building flag, too many people writing in to ask if they had to penetrate the armor value in order to inflict wounds, without realizing just how much damage they where doing.

2) 4+

Explained:
This is also something you have to derive from looking all over the place. Again, I apologize for the sloppy writing in this section of the book, I didn't do it but I feel someone has to apologize for it. In particular, you have to dig through page 95, which is all about battlements, then look into the debris section on page 104 to get the actual value for that cover save. The line you are looking for is in the second paragraph, found within the parenthesis section. It uses the term battlement walls while talking about the cover save value, without actually telling you what that is as that would be too easy. Instead you have to hunt through the rest of the book to find out what cover save is granted by being behind a wall of any description.

It is on page 104 that you will find the section 'barricades and walls' where you find the 4+ answer.

3) Yes.

Explained:
At least this one is easy answered, it is straight forward and can be found on page 93. In the section Firing from buildings is a single bold line, designed to get your attention. This is because it is a change from other fire point rules, so it is nice that they made it clear and understandable even if the rest of the building rules require you to dig and derive an answer from other places in the rule book.

In closing:
Leave me to cry in my corner about the 'it is not a building' FAQ answer which is counter to the whole 'it is a multi-part building' found in the book. As the building rules where the only thing creating limitations on what units could be on a battlement, it is now a complete mess as far as I am concerned. I am going to sit over here and continue to shake my head at the image of tanks climbing ladders, which is now legal thanks to that bloody FAQ!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Battlements don't have an armor value and can't be shot at.

Wrong.

Battlements are treated as a smaller building attached to and otherwise the same as their parent building.

There are even rules for what happens when the battlements take damage on page 95 of the BRB.

Except the FAQ completely changed that.

Yeah, but even pre-FAQ the only way to get that to happen is if you target a unit that is inside the main part of the building and bring the whole thing down.

Page 95 highlights that units on the battlement receive no protection from the building itself, aside from a cover save. This means you are not required to roll against an armor value in order to wound them, unlike other parts of the building. As you only have permission to roll on the 'building damage charts' after penetrating the buildings armor value, the fact you are not rolling to penetrate prevents you from damaging the battlements even when targeting a unit on them.

 Shandara wrote:
Except the FAQ completely changed that.

And the FAQ is in conflict with itself(and the Rulebook). We should probably bring this up with GW.

Q: If so, do battle ments count as a separate building, or is the bastion a multi-part building?(p95)
A Battlements are treated as being separate from the building itself, simply acting as cover for any models on top of the building in question– see the rules for battlements on page 95.


Q.What is the armour value of battlements?(p95)
A: Battlements have no armour value as they are not a building. They serve to protect any models on the roof of the building in the same way as barricades and walls (see page104), offering a 4+ cover save
The Faq first says the battlement is separate and follows the battlement rules on Page 95(defining it a part of a multi part building and explaining what happens to units on it when it takes a hit); then immediately says it is not a part of the multipart building their rules create at all(and basically their rules should be totally ignored).

This is so incredibly wrong and since we follow the FAQs here on YMDC I choose to follow the first entry, giving the Battlement the same AV per multipart buildings and following the battlement rules on page 95.

I really wish that second one was worded better, something along the lines of: Battlements have the same armor value as the rest of the structure, like all multi-structured buildings. Do take note, units on the battlement do not gain any protection from the buildings armor value and only receive a cover save from being obscured behind a wall. There is no need to roll to penetrate the armor value in order to inflict wounds on the battlement embarked unit.

That way all the other limitations that exist thanks to the multi-part building rules just don't vanish into thin air....

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
This is so incredibly wrong and since we follow the FAQs here on YMDC I choose to follow the first entry, giving the Battlement the same AV per multipart buildings and following the battlement rules on page 95.

The First entry says the Battlement is seperate, not that it is a seperate building.

the first entry also says to follow the rule for battlement on page 95, which says they are part of Multipart buildings and detail how to resolve a hit against them(the battlement) to the unit they contain.

Well, it's a mess. The whole building section.

Yep.

Would I be correct in assuming that if I fire a blast template at a unit on the battlements of the building that the blast would also effect the building and not just the unit on top of it?

 Col. Dracus wrote:
Would I be correct in assuming that if I fire a blast template at a unit on the battlements of the building that the blast would also effect the building and not just the unit on top of it?

Nobody knows.

Per the rulebook, it would have affected the battlements, as they are a building. Post-FAQ, the battlements can't be affected as they are no longer a building. We don't know if the blast should affect the building below with the battlements in the way or not, since it is unclear if the unit in the battlements should be considered to be occupying the building.

 Col. Dracus wrote:
Would I be correct in assuming that if I fire a blast template at a unit on the battlements of the building that the blast would also effect the building and not just the unit on top of it?

No. You have to pick the level that the blast weapon operates at. There are 3 levels to a bastion: ground floor, middle and battlements. As you are essentially picking the 3rd level as your target; the ground and middle floors are therefore safe.

i believe it would hit the building, but only if it was occupied.

Otherwise nothing happens to the building.

clively wrote:
No. You have to pick the level that the blast weapon operates at. There are 3 levels to a bastion: ground floor, middle and battlements. As you are essentially picking the 3rd level as your target; the ground and middle floors are therefore safe.

Where is the rule that says this? AFAIK the whole multiple levels thing only applies to ruins, and buildings are not ruins. So a blast weapon that lands on the top of a building would hit any models under the template on the building roof, the building itself, any models on the ground next to the building that are underneath the template, and the (hovering) flyer with a wing above the building.

Well not the flyer, they are immune to template weapons.

JinxDragon wrote:
Well not the flyer, they are immune to template weapons.

Well, hovering flyer then. Or a skimmer on a really tall base.

clively wrote:

 Col. Dracus wrote:
Would I be correct in assuming that if I fire a blast template at a unit on the battlements of the building that the blast would also effect the building and not just the unit on top of it?

No. You have to pick the level that the blast weapon operates at. There are 3 levels to a bastion: ground floor, middle and battlements. As you are essentially picking the 3rd level as your target; the ground and middle floors are therefore safe.

That rule ONLY applies to ruins. Buildings are not Ruins