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I just bought the Warmachine rulebook yesterday. I've gotten through the melee section and am ready to start the ranged section, but one thing makes me curious. There is a paragraph that says you can power attack your own units, is there ever a time that someone might actually want to throw one of your own units? it seems like one of those ridiculous moves that might actually be useful someday.

Also, I'm really loving the rules. I'm sure there's tons of tactical complexity I haven't even started to grasp yet, but they're written amazingly clearly and consistently. Also page 5....just page 5...that page should be photocopied, framed, and hung in a museum somewhere.

Throwing your own models is definitely legit. Sometimes, you just need to kill something, and you don't have a ranged weapon handy but really, mostly it's used when an opposing model (generally the enemy caster) has too high a def to reliably kill. Slam or throw a friendly at him though, and suddenly he's a DEF 5 sitting duck. Just remember, if a model is knocked down that turn it can't activate, and if it can't be knocked down it still must give up either it's movement or action if it's thrown or slammed - so no throwing a friend for extra charge range (outside of a couple of very rare situations involving Gatorman Wrastlers and epic Irusk).

Also, don't get too hung up on page 5, it's meant to be a bit tongue in cheek. Just remember that it's meant to get you to challenge yourself and be a good sportsman, it's not about rolling opponents at all costs. But yeah, it's a pretty good mission statement for the game

 dementedwombat wrote:
I just bought the Warmachine rulebook yesterday. I've gotten through the melee section and am ready to start the ranged section, but one thing makes me curious. There is a paragraph that says you can power attack your own units, is there ever a time that someone might actually want to throw one of your own units? it seems like one of those ridiculous moves that might actually be useful someday.

there are PLENTY of times you want to attack your own units, this game is dramatically effected by not having complicated "surprise" rules, but having simple flexible ones that you can twist and use in fun ways.

Examples:
- throwing your own model at a model with high DEF to knock it down
- slamming your own model to knock down and do damage to a bunch of guys or to knock down something you cant reach: for example slamming someone into a model arm locking one of your jacks to break the lock
- knocking down your own model so it doesn't block LOS for ranged attacks
- running a model close to the enemy to engage (usually high def or "cannot be targeted" enemies) then shooting the friendly in the back with an AOE

Used to be a great way to move stuff up the board, and still is for getting Shae's cannon up the board first turn to reach out and touch something.

Actually in the intro-game i was watching my friends play (they were telling me how things work as they did them, was just a 15pt game) was Trollbloods vs Circle.

The troll guy used his mauler to throw Borko 6" after rolling a good distance, then activated Borko to spend a fury to stand up and charged the enemy warlock which was another 4 inches away. Borko punched that druid's lights out and won lol.

The game would have lasted another turn or more if he didnt do that. Possibly even lose since there was still a werewolf around (forget the name, the one with the sword) with nearly full hp.

Your friends need to reread the rules. It is illegal for you to do what you describe. If your model is knocked down during your turn it must forfeit its activation for that turn. If it can't be knocked down but suffers a knock down effect then it still must forfeit either its move or special action that turn. You can not charge without both actions being available to you.

See this post: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?142660-Throwing-tactics&highlight=knocked+turn

And spending fury to "shake effect" (what he did) is done during the control phase (or was it maintenance ?). You cannot do it during your activation.

Control phase.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Your friends need to reread the rules. It is illegal for you to do what you describe. If your model is knocked down during your turn it must forfeit its activation for that turn. If it can't be knocked down but suffers a knock down effect then it still must forfeit either its move or special action that turn. You can not charge without both actions being available to you.

See this post: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?142660-Throwing-tactics&highlight=knocked+turn

Just want to point out that, as Maddermax said, the forfeit movement/action thing is only if your model is knocked down by a slam or throw on your turn. If you're knocked down for another reason but immune to it (like because a Steady model got hit by a free strike and made a Tough roll, say) you don't have to forfeit anything.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Your friends need to reread the rules. It is illegal for you to do what you describe. If your model is knocked down during your turn it must forfeit its activation for that turn. If it can't be knocked down but suffers a knock down effect then it still must forfeit either its move or special action that turn. You can not charge without both actions being available to you.

See this post: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?142660-Throwing-tactics&highlight=knocked+turn

Just want to point out that, as Maddermax said, the forfeit movement/action thing is only if your model is knocked down by a slam or throw on your turn. If you're knocked down for another reason but immune to it (like because a Steady model got hit by a free strike and made a Tough roll, say) you don't have to forfeit anything.

that isnt' right, if you knock down your own dude, but he's immune, you have to forfiet action or movement that activation, I can find page# later today

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Your friends need to reread the rules. It is illegal for you to do what you describe. If your model is knocked down during your turn it must forfeit its activation for that turn. If it can't be knocked down but suffers a knock down effect then it still must forfeit either its move or special action that turn. You can not charge without both actions being available to you.

See this post: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?142660-Throwing-tactics&highlight=knocked+turn

Just want to point out that, as Maddermax said, the forfeit movement/action thing is only if your model is knocked down by a slam or throw on your turn. If you're knocked down for another reason but immune to it (like because a Steady model got hit by a free strike and made a Tough roll, say) you don't have to forfeit anything.

Correction, to stand up you on your turn you still need to forfeit movement or action
The exception to this is if you use shake effect to remove the knocked down condition

 Talamare wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Your friends need to reread the rules. It is illegal for you to do what you describe. If your model is knocked down during your turn it must forfeit its activation for that turn. If it can't be knocked down but suffers a knock down effect then it still must forfeit either its move or special action that turn. You can not charge without both actions being available to you.

See this post: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?142660-Throwing-tactics&highlight=knocked+turn

Just want to point out that, as Maddermax said, the forfeit movement/action thing is only if your model is knocked down by a slam or throw on your turn. If you're knocked down for another reason but immune to it (like because a Steady model got hit by a free strike and made a Tough roll, say) you don't have to forfeit anything.

Correction, to stand up you on your turn you still need to forfeit movement or action
The exception to this is if you use shake effect to remove the knocked down condition

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Double-hand+Throw
" if you hurl one of your own models, that model must still forfeit either it's movement or action if it activates later that turn, even if it is immune to knockdown. You can get some speed out of throwing yourself, but it does not massively improve on your threat radius."

Normally a thrown model is knocked down, and a model that is knocked down during its own turn can't stand up until its next turn.

 Grundz wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Your friends need to reread the rules. It is illegal for you to do what you describe. If your model is knocked down during your turn it must forfeit its activation for that turn. If it can't be knocked down but suffers a knock down effect then it still must forfeit either its move or special action that turn. You can not charge without both actions being available to you.

See this post: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?142660-Throwing-tactics&highlight=knocked+turn

Just want to point out that, as Maddermax said, the forfeit movement/action thing is only if your model is knocked down by a slam or throw on your turn. If you're knocked down for another reason but immune to it (like because a Steady model got hit by a free strike and made a Tough roll, say) you don't have to forfeit anything.

Correction, to stand up you on your turn you still need to forfeit movement or action
The exception to this is if you use shake effect to remove the knocked down condition

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Double-hand+Throw
" if you hurl one of your own models, that model must still forfeit either it's movement or action if it activates later that turn, even if it is immune to knockdown. You can get some speed out of throwing yourself, but it does not massively improve on your threat radius."

Normally a thrown model is knocked down, and a model that is knocked down during its own turn can't stand up until its next turn.

I worded mine terribly and I do apologize
Correction to my Correction
Let me just try to establish the ground rules because its starting to get confusing

If you are knocked down on your own turn you can only stand on your next turn
--- On your next turn to stand up, you must forfeit action or movement (unless you shake effect)
If you are knocked down and you are immune, you must still forfeit action or movement

no problem tala, the whole knockdown thing is confusing-ish

 Talamare wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Your friends need to reread the rules. It is illegal for you to do what you describe. If your model is knocked down during your turn it must forfeit its activation for that turn. If it can't be knocked down but suffers a knock down effect then it still must forfeit either its move or special action that turn. You can not charge without both actions being available to you.

See this post: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?142660-Throwing-tactics&highlight=knocked+turn

Just want to point out that, as Maddermax said, the forfeit movement/action thing is only if your model is knocked down by a slam or throw on your turn. If you're knocked down for another reason but immune to it (like because a Steady model got hit by a free strike and made a Tough roll, say) you don't have to forfeit anything.

Correction, to stand up you on your turn you still need to forfeit movement or action
The exception to this is if you use shake effect to remove the knocked down condition

Sorry if I was unclear. I was just referring to the case of a model immune to knockdown being knocked down in its own turn.

There is no general case whereby a unit immune to knockdown must forfeit its movement or action because it was knocked down in its turn. There are specific cases that do cause a model that's immune to knockdown to have to forfeit its movement or action - namely, when it's hit by a slam or a throw and then goes on to activate later that turn. If it's knocked down for another reason (maybe it was hit by an AoE or attack that causes knockdown, say) it's fine and does not have to forfeit anything as a result.

With that sorted out, let me tell you the story of the one exception to the rule, the one case where you can throw a model, stand it up, and have it activate as though it had never been thrown.

Let me tell you the story of the Flying Gators.

The gatorman warbeast called the Blackhide Wrastler has an animus*, 'Rise'. The animus is simple: Target knocked down model stands up. No restrictions, no penalty, no nothing.

So the trick--one of the only tricks that gators have--is that you get a beast with two hands (an Ironback Spitter, a Swamp Horror, a Wrastler), and you chuck something downfield--for extra lulls, you chuck your warlock, since he can either eat the damage without losing combat effectiveness or he just transfers it. Either the warlock or the Wraslter then casts Rise on whatever was chucked. That thing now gets to activate normally if it hasn't already, and you can now charge from a new and unexpected angle several inches up the board from where you were (and you may be right next to something important that got knocked down in the throw--remember, medium and large bases just pass over small-based models while knocking them down). It's a risky trick, but it's one that can be hard to see coming if you don't see it coming.

Plus, it's just kind of hilarious.

*Animi are spell-like abilities that all warbeasts have; they can be cast by the warbeast or by their warlock for a cost in fury.

I think Rise was errata'd to only affect friendly faction. But I could be wrong.

Basically all the confusing wording around knockdowns and throwing your own model is basically to deal with the most terrible of all mk. 1 strategies - the flying Pegasus Drakhun. Immune to knockdown, powered by Vlad 2's feat, nothing was safe from the Man-O-War Drakhun and his incredible flying (via warjack throw) steed crashing down behind your lines and riding your warcaster down in a flurry of blows.

The Borka story is legal so long as his keg activates first and does his special action to make him drunk. Borka is now immune to knockdown and can kill so long as the target is within 2" of Borka's final position. He can't charge after being thrown, or even walk and attack, but should he be close enough to smack someone a good one, he's able to.

Yep, the more I read the more I begin to suspect that the people at the FLGS have no idea how to play warmachine.

It is legal to shoot an AOE at something that's out of range and hope it scatters further towards them though, right? I don't recall reading anything saying the AOE can't deviate beyond the maximum range of the weapon, although it might be in the book and I just can't remember it.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Yep, the more I read the more I begin to suspect that the people at the FLGS have no idea how to play warmachine.

It is legal to shoot an AOE at something that's out of range and hope it scatters further towards them though, right? I don't recall reading anything saying the AOE can't deviate beyond the maximum range of the weapon, although it might be in the book and I just can't remember it.

Yeah, you can fire at something out of range, and it'll scatter as normal, and can scatter beyond max range. I've had some lucky shots like that before too (a Vanquisher shot scattered straight forward 5" to murder a unit that my friend had thought safely out of range for the turn). There are even rules for specifically what to do when an AOE is out of range, from the last line of p59. Just remember that a shot will only scatter up to half the range you shot it at or up to half the range of the weapon if out of range (so a 10" RNG weapon will never scatter more than 5").

 Maddermax wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Yep, the more I read the more I begin to suspect that the people at the FLGS have no idea how to play warmachine.

It is legal to shoot an AOE at something that's out of range and hope it scatters further towards them though, right? I don't recall reading anything saying the AOE can't deviate beyond the maximum range of the weapon, although it might be in the book and I just can't remember it.

Yeah, you can fire at something out of range, and it'll scatter as normal, and can scatter beyond max range. I've had some lucky shots like that before too (a Vanquisher shot scattered straight forward 5" to murder a unit that my friend had thought safely out of range for the turn). There are even rules for specifically what to do when an AOE is out of range, from the last line of p59. Just remember that a shot will only scatter up to half the range you shot it at or up to half the range of the weapon if out of range (so a 10" RNG weapon will never scatter more than 5").

This rule is extremely important because if you shoot at someone close enough, it will never scatter in a way that would miss them

Here is an article with the math and distances for auto hit
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Warmachine_Deviation_Table

Wow! Yet another thing that people have gotten wrong. One guy was talking about one time he fired an AOE and it actually deviated behind the model who fired it. I don't think that is physically possible even by the rules.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Wow! Yet another thing that people have gotten wrong. One guy was talking about one time he fired an AOE and it actually deviated behind the model who fired it. I don't think that is physically possible even by the rules.

Under 40k rules that is possible, you often get the "moron marine" when that happens...

aka I tried to shoot the boyz 5 feet infront of me, but I accidentally shot the commander 30 feet behind me...

I think, they merely did not know that rule existed

m14dude wrote:
The Borka story is legal so long as his keg activates first and does his special action to make him drunk. Borka is now immune to knockdown and can kill so long as the target is within 2" of Borka's final position. He can't charge after being thrown, or even walk and attack, but should he be close enough to smack someone a good one, he's able to.

fun fact: NEVER END AN ACTIVATION WITHIN 10"(to ~15 or so depending on caster) OF THE OTHER CASTER!