Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK so clearly it technically is possible to have a CC oriented Ravenwing army, but could one be at all effective? I've played imperial guard for ten years and recently started to dabble in chaos. But I love the dark angels and like the ravenwing. I'd like a fast army, but I'd prefer for that army to be a close combat one as well. So my question is, would an army of mostly black knights be at all competitive? If not, why? Some general black knight tactics would also be appreciated. Thanks all

Its more situationally assaulting to avoid enemy fire than an actual assault army.

Against something like IG or tau you should usually charge every turn, though.

Give them the banner of fortitude and take the RW banner as well and you would have a list that is relatively resilient, good (not great) in cc, and can shoot the bejesus out of most other armies. You'll only have a handful of models, but it could work.

I know this isnt DA, but nob bikers are fast, very resilient and great at CC. Why not give them a look? Otherwise, I dont think a CC oriented, as in the main focus, army for RW is competitive but can be done like Ozymandias suggested.

Ravenwing is really not the best list for close combat. Every single model you have is twice to three times the cost of a normal Marine, and apart from Hammer of Wrath they are just as "adequate". The trouble is because you're taking less of them you're going to have a hard time overwhelming anyone in combat except the Tau (even Guard can pull you down with numbers). Also bear in mind that in close combat, you don't get Jink saves and apart from Sammael and maybe another HQ character, nobody has an invulnerable save. Power weapons will ruin you.

There's a reason Ravenwing units have Hit and Run, and as Nobody_Holme mentioned, it's to charge in to avoid return fire - but you need to use Hit and Run to break away in the opponent's assault phase.

You can, of course, charge with the hopes of breaking and running down the survivors of a unit you've already picked on. Hit and Run is also useful for when that attempt fails.

I can't remember who, but someone else said it best that the list is played at its best when you play like a bully. Be merciless and throw everything you have at one small part of the opposing army. Overwhelm them, don't give them any kind of chance, then swiftly move on. If you get bogged down in combat you give your opponent a chance to bring greater numbers to bear.

The point about low model count and no invulnerable saves is pretty convincing. There was just something about the idea of bikers crashing into the other army and tearing them apart. I appreciate all the help though. I will definitely be using this information. Thanks!

If I were to play a DA army, (or even a SM army) I'd be very into CC. Azreal or Belial as HQ to turn Termies into Troops, then use the teleporting homer on the Ravenwings to drop "Hammernators" uncomfortably close to the enemy on the second turn. If you use Azreal, the Ravenwings would be troops too. So as the Termies occupy the enemy troops, the bikes could secure objectives.

 Super Ready wrote:
Ravenwing is really not the best list for close combat. Every single model you have is twice to three times the cost of a normal Marine, and apart from Hammer of Wrath they are just as "adequate". The trouble is because you're taking less of them you're going to have a hard time overwhelming anyone in combat except the Tau (even Guard can pull you down with numbers). Also bear in mind that in close combat, you don't get Jink saves and apart from Sammael and maybe another HQ character, nobody has an invulnerable save. Power weapons will ruin you.

There's a reason Ravenwing units have Hit and Run, and as Nobody_Holme mentioned, it's to charge in to avoid return fire - but you need to use Hit and Run to break away in the opponent's assault phase.

You can, of course, charge with the hopes of breaking and running down the survivors of a unit you've already picked on. Hit and Run is also useful for when that attempt fails.

I can't remember who, but someone else said it best that the list is played at its best when you play like a bully. Be merciless and throw everything you have at one small part of the opposing army. Overwhelm them, don't give them any kind of chance, then swiftly move on. If you get bogged down in combat you give your opponent a chance to bring greater numbers to bear.

Probably me. Ravenwing Attack Squads aren't great in cc, but Black Knights are.

CC Ravenwing is extremely viable, and brutal against armies unprepared for it. Scout+Turbo means there's nowhere to hide, and you can get a turn 2 charge off (even turn one charges are possible). With my Black Knight list I've been regularly tabling opponents in turn 3-4.

This is slightly extreme, but a good example. You can build a slightly less extreme list with 4 BK units and 4 RW biker units. But if you're going CC never have less than 4 BK units (2 Command, 2 Fast Attack, 1 Darkshroud).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/531516.page

Ravenwing Knights woukd probably be a better CC choice for assaulting bikers. Trying to make reguker RWs into assault units is like making tactical marines assault, it is not advisable. 3-5 attacks, only 1-2 could be upgraded, is not enough, even after Hammer of Wrath, charge bonuses, and possible extra attacks from the sergeant.

They are better at driving very quickly and shooting everyone. That's why they get Hit and Run, so if they do get engaged, they can back out and hit the throttle.

Black Knights *can* work... but it means using a very expensive unit for it, so it's very much an all-or-nothing approach. If you botch the assault by rolling badly you can usually kiss the unit goodbye (ok, so that holds true for a lot of assault units anyway).

That said, if I were taking Knights I would still use them to tidy up any remaining pockets of squads rather than plan to use them in all-out-assault to begin with. The plasma is just too effective and with the small numbers of models you can't guarantee getting those Rending hits.

 Super Ready wrote:
Black Knights *can* work... but it means using a very expensive unit for it, so it's very much an all-or-nothing approach. If you botch the assault by rolling badly you can usually kiss the unit goodbye (ok, so that holds true for a lot of assault units anyway).

That said, if I were taking Knights I would still use them to tidy up any remaining pockets of squads rather than plan to use them in all-out-assault to begin with. The plasma is just too effective and with the small numbers of models you can't guarantee getting those Rending hits.

Bollocks.

How are Black Knights a 'Very Expensive Unit'?

Command Squad: 200 points for 5 (15 attacks base, Str 5 Rending)
BKs: 210 points for 5

Wraiths: 210 points for 6 (18 attacks base, Str 6 Rending)

Plague Drones: 210 points for 5 (Str 4 Poisoned)

Ymargl Genestealers: 210 for 9 (18 attacks base, Str 4 Rending)

Flesh Hounds, arguably the best CC unit in the game: 10 for 160. (20 attacks base, Str 5)

Point for point Command BKs are probably the most efficient units in the game. None of the above come with twin-linked plasmaguns, skilled rider, hit and run, jink up to 2+, and bikes.

Obviously you shoot them up and then you charge in. Why would you hold back except against... the Swarmlord?

I never said they weren't effective. But you can't claim a unit isn't expensive when per model it's more costly than:

Command Squads
Honour Guards
Terminator Squads
Sanguinary Guard
Jump pack Death Company

Taking armies around these units always ends up with the same advice - be bloody careful, because a bad mistake can cost you the game in the loss of just one unit. That's what I'm trying to impart here.

You wouldn't want to charge in against a unit that the firepower wasn't that effective against - the only reason you do is to avoid getting charged yourself. That's fair enough, but to construct your army around the idea that you want to assault with them as soon as possible is asking for trouble.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned their special grenades. Lowering either T by 1 or WS and I by 1 is pretty huge for these guys. BKs, against marines hit by a stasis grenade, will hit on 3s wound on 3s (rend on 6s) with 3 attacks a piece before the marines even attack back.