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*Please see post down the page with regards to new list idea!*
After a couple games of experimenting and experience, I've yet to have my Daemon Prince manage to earn back his 275 points in a match.
-DP of Tzeentch w/ Black Mace, Wings, Power Armour, GoM.
Is that a common occurrence, something I should be expecting? Or are they really just overpriced for what they deliver?
Regardless, I'm planning on replacing his butt with someone new and fresh. And my concerns are that I lose a big shiny target that kept my other units safe for two turns by soaking up a metric butt-load of fire, as well as a model that can reliably wipe an entire unit in an assault.

I'm running the aforementioned DP, a termie Nurgle Lord, 1x Cultists, 1x PM, 1x Termies, 1x Noise Marines, 1x Helbrute and 1x Havocs for 1500pts.

Thoughts on what to replace the DP with? A Mastery 3 Sorc with spell familiar and termie armour (150pts) leaves me 125 to fiddle with. Hide him with the noise marines, take MoS and go for Symphony of Pain? Swap termie armour for bike, give him the burning brand my Lord is currently holding, add squad of 4 or 5 bikers for mobile buffing/facemelting platform? What about Chaos Spawn, i don't have experience with them to determine potential synergies.

Thanks for your time & consideration!

As much as it would be a silly addition to the army, I've run a Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut with reasonably good turnout. Of course he's a giant target and get's shot a lot but generally he can shrug off whatever my opponent throws at him and get into that sexy melee.

Of course, a rampaging biker Sorc would be pretty comical.

It costs a little bit over the points, but consider 5 MoN Spawn with a MoN Sorceror on a bike.

Personally I would leave MoN of the sorcerer so you can throw all you powers in to trying to get invisibility.

Have you tried lord, MoS, lightning claw, pow fist, jet packs, sigil of corruption-160

Addin a raptor squad, 2 flamers-105

The MoS on 2nd lord makes your noise into troops. Otherwise I use MoT to improve sigil of corruption to a 3++. Maybe give him the brand of skalanthrax. It is no mephiston, but you are getting 5 more wounds, and 10 more attacks from the raptors.

Give it try. If you dont like it then maybe take a stead with spawns. Would that mesh well or will the spawn slow down the lord.

Imho, why would I need a 2nd hq? I usually only run a lord with a corresponding mark to unlock elite as troops. Then I spend those points on more troops.

I feel the same way with my daemon prince. Always manages to not make points back/ underwhelming. The points cost is too high for a non EW 4 wound T5 model I feel. Can you be a liitle more specific with your list? With the points you spent you can get two annihilator/dakka preds or some obliterators for some ranged threat.

What are you throwing your DP up against?

Black mace should make short work of big infantry squads and a fast MC is a great way to bust heavy armor.

The key to a DP's survival is not to expect the world of him. Flying him straight into enemy lines down the middle of the table for example is not going to see him live past a few turns.

He'd be better used flanking so incoming shooting is reduced.
Use Smash attacks to limit initial wounds (hard to do with a deamon weapon due to bonus attacks) the principle being is that you want your DP in combat in your opponents turn and leaving combat in his turn to limit the amount of incoming fire.

Use him with support, he needs friends going forward with him such as Spawn, Maulerfiends, bikes, make it hard for your opponent to kill him, hide him behind cover, don't be too over aggressive. Make it hard for your opponent to prioritise targets, target saturation, distractions.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
After a couple games of experimenting and experience, I've yet to have my Daemon Prince manage to earn back his 275 points in a match.

First of all, you should never think of a unit as 'does it get its points back'.

There are many examples of units in the game that provide a huge boost but never directly kill anything. Take the squad of cultists that spend their entire game sitting on an objective. They will never kill 50 points of models, but will win you multiple games. The the kroot screening the army of fire warriors. They probably wont kill their cost, but they will win the game by preventing an assault on to the fire warriors.

Your daemon prince might not 'earn its points back', but if its providing a threat and allowing your army to win then its doing its job.

Personally I find a single DP to be very underwhelming. I've faced that black mace DP many times, watched it fly forward bravely only to get shot out of the sky. The best way to use a DP is to run it along the sides of the board to limit incoming fire. Use it to go after targets of opportunity.
It is NOT a Derka Derka model. You don't just shove it down your opponents throat and expect success.

I myself find Daemon princes underpowered. I've played one a few times and he never did much of anything but Labmouse is right maybe he was doing something and I didn't see it (or maybe it was Ghazghkull).

Upon rereading the dp in the csm codex, I realize it is not a chsmpion of chaos meaning I did not have to issue and accept all challenges. That means I did not have to waste 6+ attacks on a sergeant. However that was how I had my dp stuck in combat for 2 turns. I think the smash tactic to reduce over kill is a better idea.

U have to think of you dp as a queen in chess. U might even have to sacrifice if it allows you to win the game.

 marrowick wrote:
I myself find Daemon princes underpowered. I've played one a few times and he never did much of anything but Labmouse is right maybe he was doing something and I didn't see it (or maybe it was Ghazghkull).

I actually like the Daemon Princes from Chaos book much better.

Nurgle deamon + Balesword + goodies works out well for me.

Bloodthirster with 2 greaters or a greater and an exalted. and 10 plaguebearers.

Well with the group of people I play with had to ban Allied Detachments before I even started playing, because a couple of 'em worked hard to pull the craziest unbeatable cheese combos out of their available options. So no daemons.

Minigun762, I have indeed been throwing it straight into infantry. So far he's always managed to wipe a single squad before being popped like a particularly angry pimple, but that squad varies from 10 MEq to a bunch of shoota boyz. And he has NEVER made it to a 2nd squad. Not only that, but the black mace hasn't earned him a single kill via curse yet. ...Not that he really needs them, I suppose.

Labmouse42, damn good point. Especially vs my DA buddy, who is using the Standard of Devastation and some 30+ Marines. Salvo 4 is entirely unapproachable with my DP.

With our 2000pt armies (first match in a couple hours) I've tried to get a little more target saturation going on. Forgefiend, Helbrute w/twin-linked lascannon, Baledrake, 4 Deep Strike Terminators w/combi-melta + Typhus, Rhino+9 Plagues w/meltas x2, and 4 spawn + MoK AoBF Juggerlord, with minimum zombies to hold home base.
Is that reasonable? Or what about the suggested Jump Pack lord + Raptors?

Frankenberry & King Pyrrhus, what are the advantages of getting a Sorc into CC? Isn't that mostly a bad idea, due to 2 wounds and ~ combat prowess?

Over budget, but worth every point. Wouldn't loose too many bikes.

Biker lord - bike, PF, BBoS, Mon, SoC - 180
Biker squad x8 - plasma x2, Power fist - 225

Benefit of Bikers vs Spawn?
I can definitely see BBoS being entirely useful for strafing runs, but beyond that not feeling it. You can get 5 marked spawn for cheaper; not only are you getting more wounds, T6 or 4++, fearless, fear, and rage, but they can run all over terrain no worries.

EDIT: Army list theoretically changed to Typhus, Juggerlord w/chaos spawn retinue, 1x min zombie cultist, 2x PM w/rhino, termies, 2x helbrute, havocs, heldrake, forgefiend for 2000.
Could swap 1x PM to kitted out Noise, take out helbrute, add 1x zombies.

What d'you think?

Spawn are awesome as well, I run them when I'm not up against too much armour. My problem is all those backfield hugging tanks. I like to bring them two PF's by round 2. With the oprion of running the lord solo to bring down meq's. The bikes are much faster, more specialized, not holding the biker lord back on turbo boost and jink.

When it comes to your list, it lacks details first of all, but ill do my best. Juggerlord with aobf i assume? He's awesome, but he's not going to do a lot on his own. If all you have is typhus and his termies slogging behind to back him up? I can't really see the purpose of each unit. The PM's seem to somehow fit in to every army in one way or another, they are super versitile. I usually kit my PM's in squads of 5-6 (they're so goddamn expencive) with 2x plasmas and a power weapon if i can afford it, the axe usually, though i can't seem to find a big use for it. I would want the PF, but its too expencive, so i settle for his posisoned Ccw most of the time and keep them at a distance while the rest of my units run up (beasts, daemons, drake and bikes) with their 12"+ and overwhelm the enemy or die In the attemt.

Hope you found this useful, In some way.

I don't know much about the Daemon prince other than my best friend used to bring it all the time, I killed it over and over again and he stopped using it as well,
then I started using a Dreadknight.. and I almost thought the same thing as my friend... that it was just shot down and targeted before it could do what I wanted it to,
So instead of stopping using it, I brought a second one... Solved my problem for the dread knight at least, dunno if it would help bringing another DP for you..
2 is always better than 1, and if 1 goes down, well, at least you still have another

Absolutely useful dude, thank you!
Just ran a match with the aforementioned list (which I'll edit to add detail), won 3-1 vs Dark Angels. The Scouring.
I definitely realized partway through that my army did lack cohesion. The zombies were bleh, I didn't feel Mr. T was set up so that he could help anyone, and the helbrutes and forgefiend just got in everyone's way. The terminators deep striked but didn't accomplish much other than eating a unit of space marines. I did end up needing more for vs armour, though that may just be my kneejerk reaction to having gone up against 6 tanks.
Want to ditch one Helbrute, turn the other into a ranged threat, ditch the cultists and Typhus.

New thoughts, running at 1998pts
HQ (360)
-Chaos Lord w/MoK, Juggernaut, AoBF, GoM, SoC
-Chaos Lord w/MoN, Bike, BBoS, PF, SoC

Troops (552)
-9x PM w/2 meltagun, Rhino
-9x PM w/2 plasma gun, Rhino

Elites (285)
-4x Terminator w/MoN, 3 combi-plasma
-Helbrute w/2 missile launcher

Fast Attack (476)
-4x Chaos Spawn
-6x Chaos Bikers w/MoN, 2 meltagun
-Heldrake w/baleflamer

Heavy Support (325)
-Havocs w/MoN, 2 lascannon, 2 autocannon
-Forgefiend

The terminators don't feel like they have a niche yet, I have no idea what/where/how to use them.
Obviously there is a bit of redundancy with the Chaos Lords, but is that really a bad thing? The Juggerlord +spawn can handle termies and other tough-to-crack infantry, the Biker Lord takes MEq. That said, I do have a Sorcerer I'm itching to use if I can figure out how.
The bikers deal with armour. The PM handle objective stealing and MCs. Havocs snipe armour or high-threat units. Helbrute can take hordes or armour. Forgefiend shreds infantry. Heldrake vs MEq. Termies... hunt MC or other termies?

Glad to help.
Now this is easier to comment on.

Those lords are really awesome, in any pt. limit below 2k, i'd say it was a redundancy. Just made a 1750 list and i felt i needed to take one out. If your thinking of letting a sorcerer fill one of these guys shoes, you're in for a disappointment. At least after my experience. The biker lord can take down anything with that PF, not only infantry, charge him into the closest tank (preferably with a biker sgt. to take another PF swing to make sure). I've had better luck with bringing a cuple more bikes than give them MoN, but its no big deal, a cuple more combi bolers cant't hurt.

When it comes to Tremies i don't own any, but if i were to get them, I would get a LR, I would never footslogg or DS termies, drop pod would be nice though. I've just stopped DS'ing altogether apart from an occasional obliterator unit.

Your PM squads are really big and expensive. I would at least drop one PM from each squad and have an objective camping naked cultist unit.

Heh yeah sorry 'bout that.

@ KonTheory; no way am I shelling out for 2 DP. That's > 1/3 of my army in two little baskets. Plus that means no elites as troops. I tried that with my helbrutes, and yes it worked but they're still not nearly as effective as I'd like.

@ killerpenguin; What about the sorc is a disappointment? I've played with one in a 1000pt tourney, got 3rd of 8. Grabbed invisibility a couple of times, Endurance, otherwise Symphony of Pain w/Noise Marines. Granted I've no Noise in this list, but it always helped.

I noticed you didn't mention MoN on the bikes, but in my experience a few less models to ensure tougher units is worth it. And the swap would only add 1 biker. As for combi-bolters I have so much trouble killing anything with bolters it's ridiculous. Lots of MEq out there. But I guess two friends play ork and tau...

Been DSing my termies, mostly works ok. Ever used Huron? Was wondering if reliably infiltrating vs deep striking is worth the investment/loss of Chaos Lord.

In ten games I've only ever once had a unit of cultists survive 'till the end, and I mostly use them for camping. Honestly I'd rather the extra 2 PM. Sure they're expensive, but they're useful and don't instantly dissolve if a gun is pointed in their general direction.

One of my biggest issues is definitely deploying my army for best effect. Any suggestions, or ideas where to learn the ropes of deployment?

Just the fact that he cost too much for what he did in my list, other people will be much more into sorcerers than me, he might fit into your list.

I've heard a lot good about noise marines. Doesn't really fit my theme unfortunately.

Combi-bolteres ain't so bad. I just thought of this.. Compare 13 points for a marine to 20 points for a bike and look at the gear and special rules, thats pretty considerable for what you get. Then add 6 points for MoN... meh. I run 9-10 bikes+the lord. Thats 60 more points for the unit, so 7 MoN bikes or 10 regular? Thats 6 more rerollable shots on the charge, not to mention 3 HoW and 9 CC attacks. I just feel it ads up to being more favorable to regular bikes.

Why not Lord of slaanesh on steed? No, never tried him.

They're weak. Then again, a 50 pt. troop in the deployment zone could be a game winner. You should try 35 with flamers and a bbos lord. Thats a ever lasting unit.

I deploy closest to whatever i want to kill, pretty assulty. Dont really have any good pointers, it depends very much on who I'm meeting.

I've just gotta keep trying different options to see what I like!
Noise marines have served me fantastically well in the past, they're just expensive and don't fit this list as troops, which is why I decided 2x PM instead of 1 and 1.

Good argument for more bikes, but with the numbers I'm running I'd only get 1 extra if I ditch MoN. Slaanesh is a decent thought, though. Outflanking bikers with acute senses sounds like a solid party up in my opponent's backside. Cheaper than Huron, too.

I'm playing a 500pt game vs orks in the near future; decided on 30 cultists w/3x flamer and the bbos lord w/chainsword, squad of CSM w/flamer, and heldrake. Hoping to tear him a new one, and test the cultist blob at the same time.

BIker Lords are better, true, given their wargear choices and different bonuses but the Sorc is essentially a mobile buff unit that makes whomever is hanging out with him, more dangerous. He's no slouch in combat, but if you're looking to get him stuck in with Captains, or Heroes of any sort...you'll see him turn to dust.

Spawn are completely underrated and not too expensive...the second hq (sorc) runs with them and buffs, slam them into a weak flank or a meatshield and watch them tear the enemy apart. Not great, but not bad for the points.

Well it depends of how many threats you have on the tabel,a deamon prince with the stuff you put on him is a great destraction while the rest of you army is not getting shot up.

Yeah I figured, DP isn't really as survivable as Dreadknights, its was like comparing apples and dragon fruits lol