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2013/06/20 11:24:54
Subject: The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
Hey, do you have a hard time distinguishing which person is a rapist; if 2 people have sex with a child under 14? Looks like CNN can help you with that. Here are two stories that are in the news section right now, nearly side by side.
Former 6th grade teacher admits sex with boy From Elwyn Lopez, CNN
updated 12:20 PM EDT, Sun June 16, 2013
"Malia Brooks has a mental illness," says her attorney, Ron Bamieh.
The mother of two is likely to get a six-year sentence, the district attorney says
She pleaded guilty to three counts of lewd conduct with a child under 14
She'd been consistently evaluated as an exemplary teacher, school district says
(CNN) -- A former sixth-grade teacher and mother of two pleaded guilty to having sex with a student, Southern California authorities said Friday.
Malia Brooks, who taught at Garden Grove Elementary in Simi Valley, pleaded guilty Thursday to three counts of lewd conduct with a child under 14, said Ventura County Deputy District Attorney Erin Meister.
The judge indicated that Brooks will likely receive a six-year prison term when sentenced on August 23, Meister said. Bail was set at $2 million for the 32-year-old Brooks, who remains in custody.
"Malia Brooks has a mental illness. For 31 years, she was a law-abiding citizen," her attorney, Ron Bamieh, said. "Something had to occur for her to drastically change who she was. It's not like she is attracted to 12 year-old boys."
Brooks agreed to the plea deal because she did not want to put the victim through a trial, Bamieh said.
A police investigation into allegations that Brooks carried on an inappropriate relationship with a male student began in February. Authorities say the relationship occurred during a four month period in 2012.
Brooks, who had been on administrative leave, resigned from the Simi Valley Unified School District earlier this month.
She was arraigned on charges Wednesday and plead guilty on Thursday, Bamieh said.
On the other hand, if you are a man; this is what your coverage is more likely to look like:
NYC police: Teacher accused of raping 10-year-old student By Chris Boyette and Leigh Remizowski, CNN
updated 10:30 PM EDT, Wed June 19, 2013
New York (CNN) -- A Bronx public school teacher has been arrested and charged in the alleged rape of a 10-year-old student, according to NYPD Deputy Commissioner Paul Browne.
Anthony Criscuolo, 40, was arrested on Wednesday after the alleged victim's mother called police, according to NYPD detective Marc Nell.
Criscuolo was charged with first-degree rape and predatory sexual assault of a child, Browne said. The charges stemmed from an purported incident on Monday in the teacher's car, Browne said.
Criscuolo, who taught fifth grade special education at PS 386 in the Bronx, was immediately reassigned away from the school and any students, Connie Pankratz, a spokeswoman for the city Department of Education, said later Wednesday.
The department is now seeking his termination, she added.
Criscuolo began working in the New York City school system in 2002 as a substitute teacher in the Bronx. In his most recent position at PS 386, was paid $72,990, Pankratz said.
After his arrest, Criscuolo was jailed at the Bronx County courthouse pending an arraignment, which could take place on Thursday. It could not be determined Wednesday night whether Cruiscuolo was being represented by an attorney.
Richard Riley, a spokesman for the United Federation of Teachers, said regarding the charge against Criscuolo, "The matter is under investigation." The union represents approximately 75,000 New York City public school teachers, according to its website.
So, it's pretty simple to pick out the rapist, looks like. It's the one with the penis.
Feminists and others often talk about "rape culture". Well, here is a nice chunk of it in my opinion - the soft pedalling of language and coverage for female rapists in the media, in our discourse, and in our courts (I'm willing to bet rapist #2 is going to be looking at a lot more than 6 years). It's unacceptable, and it needs to stop.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
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2013/06/20 11:45:35
Subject: The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/06/20 11:55:35
Subject: Re:The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
I'm with Frazz on this one... agreed... I'm trying to think of a way to make this fit, but both stories are teachers who had sex with under age students...
Does the first story mention if she turned herself in? Because all it says is that she plead guilty to the "relationship" while the second story says that the child's mother called the cops.
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
2013/06/20 12:05:12
Subject: The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
The root of the issue is that our cultures tend to see men as acting and women acted upon. A woman molesting a boy doesn't fit into the cultural vocabulary (unless maybe she's doing it at the behest of a man). So, yes, feminists are likely to agree with you that it's a problem.
2013/06/20 12:06:24
Subject: Re:The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
Presumably the case with the woman was consensual. Which a minor cannot legally consent, there is a difference between that and assaulting a child in your car.
What is it with stories recently of teachers having sex with their pupils? Seems like I've read quite a few recently. Even in cases where the child consents, it's an abuse of power. Unless you've had a bang on the head there's no excuse for allowing yourself to stray anywhere near that situation. Sometimes it's worth reporting if a pupil appears to have an inappropriate attraction to you, just to nip it in the bud and make sure your superiors are aware.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/20 13:38:37
2013/06/20 13:45:47
Subject: The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
This society does seem to inflate male behavior more, it's the same here in the UK. Although alleged 'proper' rape of a 10 year old girl is worse, the first story should still be acknowledged as rape.
2013/06/20 14:24:42
Subject: Re:The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
I'm not sure if this is a "feminist" thing... to me it's a simple case that culturally we come down harder on men than women, because culturally, we percieve women as the more defenseless gender.
Look at the divorce industry.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/06/20 14:37:16
Subject: Re:The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
My tie-in to feminism is that as a society we need to accept that if women are equal, some of them will be as equally predatory; and should be treated and sentenced the same. If a man did what Kilkrazy states happened, you know damn well he wouldn't have gotten 6 years. Unfortunately we seem not to see these women as "just making mistakes" and so on, in need or protection even, instead of as the sexual predators they are. Chances are; she won't be on a sex offender list, and the coverage never even uses the word "rape". This is wrong and men and women both should be unhappy with this.
Anyway, I'm off the soapbox. I'm not one of those men's rights guys, and this isn't some crusade I follow; I just thought it would make for today's interesting OT discussion because, as I said; both stories were literally linked on the same page on CNN and the situations were in many ways so similar.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/20 14:39:39
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/06/20 14:39:40
Subject: The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
Should, yes - I'm speculating not because I haven't been able to locate anything one way or the other concrete on that so I'm assuming she skated on that as part of her plea bargain, but I could be wrong.. she probably has not been sentenced yet. Perhaps lets omit that element for now, until we know for sure.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/20 14:45:41
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/06/20 14:46:44
Subject: The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
The woman in the first story looks strangely like Melissa Joan Hart from an episode of Law and Order: SVU where she comitted a similar act if I remember correctly.
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
2013/06/20 14:50:03
Subject: Re:The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
Ouze wrote: Should, yes - I'm speculating not because I haven't been able to locate anything one way or the other concrete on that so I'm assuming she skated on that as part of her plea bargain, but I could be wrong.. she probably has not been sentenced yet. Perhaps lets omit that element for now, until we know for sure.
Back to OP...there is a double-standard unfortunately... and yes we all should NOT be happy about that.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/06/20 14:51:32
Subject: The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
Ouze wrote: My tie-in to feminism is that as a society we need to accept that if women are equal, some of them will be as equally predatory; and should be treated and sentenced the same. If a man did what Kilkrazy states happened, you know damn well he wouldn't have gotten 6 years. Unfortunately we seem not to see these women as "just making mistakes" and so on, in need or protection even, instead of as the sexual predators they are. Chances are; she won't be on a sex offender list, and the coverage never even uses the word "rape". This is wrong and men and women both should be unhappy with this.
Anyway, I'm off the soapbox. I'm not one of those men's rights guys, and this isn't some crusade I follow; I just thought it would make for today's interesting OT discussion because, as I said; both stories were literally linked on the same page on CNN and the situations were in many ways so similar.
In various ways they are very different.
To be frank, it seems to me that you are saying the stories are very similar in order to be outraged at the way they are being described differently. But if they are different, they should be described differently.
Then you go off on the tangent of imagining that the woman in case one got let off lightly compared to a man.
In terms of semantics, you seem to want statutory rape and actual rape to be described as the same thing. The law does not recognise them as the same thing, that is why they are described differently.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/20 15:06:38
A massive twit-storm washed over your humble columnist yesterday, set off by our Wall Street Journal op-ed defending an Obama nominee and the rights of criminal defendants. To recap briefly: Sen. Claire McCaskill has placed a "permanent hold" on the nomination of Gen. Susan Helms to be vice commander of the Air Force Space Command. McCaskill is punishing Helms for having granted clemency to an officer under her command, Capt. Matthew Herrera, who was convicted of aggravated sexual assault.
We reviewed the facts and concluded that Helms was correct in holding that the prosecution case was so weak as to make the conviction unjust. (Herrera did not escape punishment: He pleaded guilty to an "indecent act" and was involuntarily discharged from the service.)
Our argument infuriated feminists, yielding hundreds of tweets and perhaps a dozen posts on various leftist websites. Particularly noteworthy was a tweet from @Invisible_War, which promotes a documentary described as "a groundbreaking investigation into the epidemic of rape in the US military." The tweet read: "Appalling: @WSJ's @jamestaranto thinks we're criminalizing male sexuality by prosecuting military rape."
That is an utter falsehood. Our column discussed sexual assault but made no specific mention of rape, a distinct and more serious offense under military law. Herrera was not accused of rape. We sent a corrective tweet to @Invisible_War, but no correction has been forthcoming. Readers are left to draw their own inferences as to the film's credibility.
Enlarge Image
Getty Images
The falsehood that we were somehow defending rapists was propagated widely. At Salon, Katie McDonough published a piece titled "Five Easy Steps for Becoming a Rape Apologist: James Taranto's editorial provides a handy guide for blaming the victim." (Amusingly, McDonough faults us in Step 3 for using the "gendered" word "histrionic." She must imagine that it has an etymological commonality with "hysterical." In fact they come from different languages: hystera is Greek for "womb," but histrio is Latin for "actor." Remember when that municipal worker in the District of Columbia got fired for saying "niggardly," which a coworker mistook for a racial slur?)
Some of the comments were just abusive. At the website of Cosmopolitan magazine, Natasha Burton called us a "freaking jackass." Victoria Lee tweeted: "why is it always guys who look like Taranto, the ones who know crap about women, ... try 2talk abt women." We contrasted that tweet with one from Jessica Valenti (who was not referring to us): "Calling a feminist 'ugly' is generally the first response of humdrum misogynists and the last resort of covert ones."
Sauce for the goose, we suppose. (Though we now need a gender-specific phrase for an argumentum ad hominem against a man, the male equivalent of the argumentum ad feminam.) But then Lauren Rankin replied: "good god, man. that's not a comment on your attractiveness; it's a comment on your white, male privilege." Rankin thinks she's defending Lee by construing her comment as racist.
Related Video
Best of the Web Today columnist James Taranto on Lt. General Susan Helms, a victim of Missouri Sen. Claire McCaskill's war on men. Photos: AJ Mast
The feminist website Jezebel featured a piece by Katie Baker (last seen lashing out at Susan Patton) calling us "a prolific woman-hating troll," "the worst" and, for good measure, "THE WORST." We'll give her "prolific." Then she wrote: "I'm not interested in engaging with Taranto, because he's a cockroach." As we've noted before, describing one's adversaries as vermin is a rhetorical trope of the genocidaire.
All this viciousness was in the service of denying that there is, as we wrote in yesterday's article, a "war on men." Well, imagine if a prominent feminist journalist wrote about the "war on women" and dozens of conservative male writers responded by subjecting her to similar verbal abuse. Would that not be prima facie evidence that she was on to something? If the answer is yes--and we'd say it is--then either the same is true in our case or the sexes aren't equal. (Select one or both of the above.)
We can take the abuse. In fact, in this instance we delight in it, not only because we see the humor but because it proves us right.
But the underlying subject matter is far from funny. The objective of these ideologues is to destroy the lives of men. Some such men are serious criminals who deserve severe punishment. But others are victims of false accusations or overzealous prosecutors. Some were involved in ambiguous situations in which a fair trial cannot establish their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Herrera clearly fell into at least that last category.
Everyone accused of a crime, even the guilty, is entitled to the basic protections of due process, including the presumption of innocence, the right to a fair trial, and the right to appeal a guilty verdict.
One way of responding to our op-ed would have been to concede that Taranto has a point about the Herrera case and McCaskill's treatment of Helms, but to argue that sexual assault in the military is nevertheless a serious problem that requires new administrative or legal remedies.
We can imagine being persuaded to agree with such an argument. But we haven't seen anybody make it. The tweets and articles quoted above are typical of the response from the feminist left. The few who've deigned to discuss the facts of the case at all--Slate's Amanda Marcotte and TalkingPointsMemo's Catherine Thompson among them--have distorted them beyond recognition, obscuring the questions about the credibility of Herrera's accuser that led Helms to reject the court-martial verdict of guilty.
This appetite for punishment regardless of facts, this contempt for the rights of the accused, is worthy of a lynch mob. That is an inflammatory analogy, but we employ it advisedly. The victims of lynching were not infrequently men accused of sexual violations.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/06/20 15:08:29
Subject: The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
Alfndrate wrote: Nothing about Lewd conduct in California seems to match what this woman did.
288. (a) Except as provided in subdivision (i), any person who
willfully and lewdly commits any lewd or lascivious act, including
any of the acts constituting other crimes provided for in Part 1,
upon or with the body, or any part or member thereof, of a child who
is under the age of 14 years, with the intent of arousing, appealing
to, or gratifying the lust, passions, or sexual desires of that
person or the child, is guilty of a felony and shall be punished by
imprisonment in the state prison for three, six, or eight years.
I think that covers it, don't you?
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
2013/06/20 15:58:56
Subject: Re:The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
A massive twit-storm washed over your humble columnist yesterday, set off by our Wall Street Journal op-ed defending an Obama nominee and the rights of criminal defendants. To recap briefly: Sen. Claire McCaskill has placed a "permanent hold" on the nomination of Gen. Susan Helms to be vice commander of the Air Force Space Command. McCaskill is punishing Helms for having granted clemency to an officer under her command, Capt. Matthew Herrera, who was convicted of aggravated sexual assault.
We reviewed the facts and concluded that Helms was correct in holding that the prosecution case was so weak as to make the conviction unjust. (Herrera did not escape punishment: He pleaded guilty to an "indecent act" and was involuntarily discharged from the service.)
Our argument infuriated feminists, yielding hundreds of tweets and perhaps a dozen posts on various leftist websites. Particularly noteworthy was a tweet from @Invisible_War, which promotes a documentary described as "a groundbreaking investigation into the epidemic of rape in the US military." The tweet read: "Appalling: @WSJ's @jamestaranto thinks we're criminalizing male sexuality by prosecuting military rape."
That is an utter falsehood. Our column discussed sexual assault but made no specific mention of rape, a distinct and more serious offense under military law. Herrera was not accused of rape. We sent a corrective tweet to @Invisible_War, but no correction has been forthcoming. Readers are left to draw their own inferences as to the film's credibility.
Enlarge Image
Getty Images The falsehood that we were somehow defending rapists was propagated widely. At Salon, Katie McDonough published a piece titled "Five Easy Steps for Becoming a Rape Apologist: James Taranto's editorial provides a handy guide for blaming the victim." (Amusingly, McDonough faults us in Step 3 for using the "gendered" word "histrionic." She must imagine that it has an etymological commonality with "hysterical." In fact they come from different languages: hystera is Greek for "womb," but histrio is Latin for "actor." Remember when that municipal worker in the District of Columbia got fired for saying "niggardly," which a coworker mistook for a racial slur?)
Some of the comments were just abusive. At the website of Cosmopolitan magazine, Natasha Burton called us a "freaking jackass." Victoria Lee tweeted: "why is it always guys who look like Taranto, the ones who know crap about women, ... try 2talk abt women." We contrasted that tweet with one from Jessica Valenti (who was not referring to us): "Calling a feminist 'ugly' is generally the first response of humdrum misogynists and the last resort of covert ones."
Sauce for the goose, we suppose. (Though we now need a gender-specific phrase for an argumentum ad hominem against a man, the male equivalent of the argumentum ad feminam.) But then Lauren Rankin replied: "good god, man. that's not a comment on your attractiveness; it's a comment on your white, male privilege." Rankin thinks she's defending Lee by construing her comment as racist.
Related Video
Best of the Web Today columnist James Taranto on Lt. General Susan Helms, a victim of Missouri Sen. Claire McCaskill's war on men. Photos: AJ Mast
The feminist website Jezebel featured a piece by Katie Baker (last seen lashing out at Susan Patton) calling us "a prolific woman-hating troll," "the worst" and, for good measure, "THE WORST." We'll give her "prolific." Then she wrote: "I'm not interested in engaging with Taranto, because he's a cockroach." As we've noted before, describing one's adversaries as vermin is a rhetorical trope of the genocidaire.
All this viciousness was in the service of denying that there is, as we wrote in yesterday's article, a "war on men." Well, imagine if a prominent feminist journalist wrote about the "war on women" and dozens of conservative male writers responded by subjecting her to similar verbal abuse. Would that not be prima facie evidence that she was on to something? If the answer is yes--and we'd say it is--then either the same is true in our case or the sexes aren't equal. (Select one or both of the above.)
We can take the abuse. In fact, in this instance we delight in it, not only because we see the humor but because it proves us right.
But the underlying subject matter is far from funny. The objective of these ideologues is to destroy the lives of men. Some such men are serious criminals who deserve severe punishment. But others are victims of false accusations or overzealous prosecutors. Some were involved in ambiguous situations in which a fair trial cannot establish their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Herrera clearly fell into at least that last category.
Everyone accused of a crime, even the guilty, is entitled to the basic protections of due process, including the presumption of innocence, the right to a fair trial, and the right to appeal a guilty verdict.
One way of responding to our op-ed would have been to concede that Taranto has a point about the Herrera case and McCaskill's treatment of Helms, but to argue that sexual assault in the military is nevertheless a serious problem that requires new administrative or legal remedies.
We can imagine being persuaded to agree with such an argument. But we haven't seen anybody make it. The tweets and articles quoted above are typical of the response from the feminist left. The few who've deigned to discuss the facts of the case at all--Slate's Amanda Marcotte and TalkingPointsMemo's Catherine Thompson among them--have distorted them beyond recognition, obscuring the questions about the credibility of Herrera's accuser that led Helms to reject the court-martial verdict of guilty.
This appetite for punishment regardless of facts, this contempt for the rights of the accused, is worthy of a lynch mob. That is an inflammatory analogy, but we employ it advisedly. The victims of lynching were not infrequently men accused of sexual violations.
Sometimes I think digital age information technology is a plague designed to destroy critical thought; all the information one could ever want and but no motivation to actually analyze it. But, I think that's probably just my pessimism coming to the fore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/20 16:00:24
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
2013/06/20 15:59:13
Subject: The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
Alfndrate wrote: Nothing about Lewd conduct in California seems to match what this woman did.
288. (a) Except as provided in subdivision (i), any person who willfully and lewdly commits any lewd or lascivious act, including any of the acts constituting other crimes provided for in Part 1, upon or with the body, or any part or member thereof, of a child who is under the age of 14 years, with the intent of arousing, appealing to, or gratifying the lust, passions, or sexual desires of that person or the child, is guilty of a felony and shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for three, six, or eight years.
I think that covers it, don't you?
Well when you put words to it, of course it covers it (I missed that one )
The problem that I find with this is that Lewd Conduct explicitly says a person under the age of 14, the subject was 14 years old, which would fall under California's Statutory Rape law that mentions under 18.
Though looking at the punishment associated with each act... Statutory rape in California holds a shorter sentence (the maximum is 4 years), which blows the "lessened sentence for turning herself in" thought out of the water.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/20 15:59:40
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2013/06/20 16:10:36
Subject: The difference "an inappropriate relationship" and "rape"
The problem that I find with this is that Lewd Conduct explicitly says a person under the age of 14, the subject was 14 years old, which would fall under California's Statutory Rape law that mentions under 18.
The quote from the article says 12, doesn't it?
her attorney, Ron Bamieh, said. "Something had to occur for her to drastically change who she was. It's not like she is attracted to 12 year-old boys."