2000 Points Eldar Army

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**PredaKhaine**

I'm trying to crate a TAC list at 2k.

This is my list as it stands
Karandras
Farseer
Jetbike
Mantle
Spirit Stone

10 Dire Avengers
Exarch
Power Weapon and Shimmershield
Wave Serpent
Twin Linked Bright Lance
Holo Field

10 Dire Avengers
Exarch
Power Weapon and Shimmershield
Wave Serpent
Twin Linked Star Cannon
Holo Field

Wraithguard
D-scythes
Wave Serpent
Twin Linked Star Cannon
Holo Field

Wraithguard
Wave Serpent
Twin Linked Star Cannon
Holo Field

Phoenix Bomber

Nightwing

I only ever fight marines - In my last game I took 9 spiders, 12 jetbikes and sent a wave serpent with 10 Dire Avengers with them - as an attacking force, they didn't cut it. They met Corbulo from the BA who just tanked every single shot they had without losing a wound with 2+FNP.

I've decided to swap them out for more wave serpents. Seriously, they appear to be the only thing which is more effective for me so far in this codex. Bar one fluke game where 10 dark reapers were king.
I need something which will stand up and fight in cc - dire avengers get 1-2 turns of shooting before they get caught in cc. They also need farseer support to be effective against marines, so I've added a jetseer with the mantle - if my maths is right, that gives him stealth, shrouded and jink for a 2+ cover save?
Flying up in serpents and leaping out and firing is fun, but Dire Avengers don't kill enough marines in a turn and then the main rule of eldar comes into effect (If you don't completely kill what you're shooting at, then it will kill you)

I also need something to give me an edge in cc.
I've put Karandras in, but I'm not sold as he's the most expensive phoenix lord.
I don't feel that scorpions are worth the points - they don't fit in a serpent and they can't hide. As the eldar rely on cover saves, everybody I fight now brings flamers everywhere - normally leaping out of drop pods. I also now meet sternguard a lot - again also leaping out of drop pods with cover ignoring ammo.
They make the squad too small to do anything after that. Banshees still have all the same issues.

Any thoughts would be appreciated

**PredaKhaine**

Is there a better troops alternative for Eldar? Looking at this list again, the model count is abysmal.

Jetbikes, Guardians and Dire Avengers just don't seem to do that well for me against marines. The only ones that kill are the 'rending' shots of which I seem to average about 2 per turn from each squad.

Are wraithguard in wave serpents actually viable or does it work out too expensive for return?

**shamikebab**

Jetbikes slaughter marines for me (as do Wraithguard with D-Scythes obviously but they are a lot more expensive)

**PredaKhaine**

How're you running your bikes?

**mixer86**

Jet bikes= best troop choice in the codex IMHO.

17 point marines with twinlinked rending gun with speed of roadrunner.

**PredaKhaine**

I've been running 2 x squads of 6 with two cannons in each.
Would they work better in 3's or as a single squad?

**shamikebab**

PredaKhaine wrote:
How're you running your bikes?

2 squads of nine with cannons and a Farseer leading them (I'm running 2 at 1850pts) They're so mobile and are very tough for their points value. Plus people are always surprised at how much damage 6 twin linked catapults, 3 cannons and a Spear (sometimes guided) can put out.

**PredaKhaine**

Cheers

How are you handling CC in your list?

**mixer86**

PredaKhaine wrote:
I've been running 2 x squads of 6 with two cannons in each.
Would they work better in 3's or as a single squad?

I have also been using 2 x 6's with 2 cannons, though i roll a jetlock in each unit for 2+ cover saves.

I think the trick is to use your mobility properly. What i mean by that is not speeding as fast as you can into range and shooting then hoping you roll high enough to get out of charge range as i've seen many do.

I use my speed to pick my fights better, turbo boosting to expose weaker units such as 5 man devastator squads instead of taking on a tac squad head on.

doing this i find leaves the tac squads exposed and unsupported. thats when i swing back around and using multiple units put them in a hurt locker.

**PredaKhaine**

I think I might have to invest in some jetlocks

**mikeyboyj**

I only have 3 jetbikes at the moment but thinking about it I can see the logic in using jetbikes en mass.

How does the mantle work? - is the OP correct it gives a 2+ cover save at all times the bikes move in effect?

Regarding the list I like it although if you are always playing against marines, I've found Dire Avengers to be not overly effective. Really like Karandras and a jetbike Farseer but havn't tried them together in a list before, mainly because of the points sink.

My advice would be to reconsider the Avengers in serpents and consider bikes or a spiritseer and more wraithguard. The list as it stands only has 2 troops which I think for a 2k point game is 3 too few. I love a couple of cheap ranger squads just to cover home objectives. Can be a real pain in the ass to kill (especially if they are camping on objectives that give them +1 cover save as was the case in my last game).

**PredaKhaine**

Good point - If I make a spiritseer on a jetbike rather than a would make my wraithguard troops and support my bikes a bit better.

Can the spiritseer take a jetbike? no codex atm...

**mixer86**

PredaKhaine wrote:
Good point - If I make a spiritseer on a jetbike rather than a would make my wraithguard troops and support my bikes a bit better.

Can the spiritseer take a jetbike? no codex atm...

No, spritseers cannot take Jetbikes. Not sure what the mantle does as i don't use it, the Warlocks primaris power Conceal grants the warlock and by extension his unit stealth, which combined with the jetbike 5+ jink, +1 for turbo boosting and the +2 for stealth = 2+ cover save.

Just beware of things like Helldrakes with bale flamers.

**shamikebab**

PredaKhaine wrote:Cheers

How are you handling CC in your list?

I haven't really come up against it tbh. I've faced Tau three times, Space Marines once and Dark Eldar once. Eldar have quite a lot of mobility so I don't think CC is too much of a problem.

mikeyboyj wrote:
How does the mantle work? - is the OP correct it gives a 2+ cover save at all times the bikes move in effect?

In theory yes, but it is a cover save so it is vulnerable to anything that ignores cover or jink (like Dark reapers. Basically don't try it against Tau.

The Mantle gives you Stealth, Shrouded and let's you re-roll cover saves, at the cost of losing Independent Character status.

PredaKhaine wrote:Good point - If I make a spiritseer on a jetbike rather than a would make my wraithguard troops and support my bikes a bit better.

Can the spiritseer take a jetbike? no codex atm...

No he can't :(

**PredaKhaine**

shamikebab wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:Cheers

How are you handling CC in your list?

I haven't really come up against it tbh. I've faced Tau three times, Space Marines once and Dark Eldar once. Eldar have quite a lot of mobility so I don't think CC is too much of a problem.

mikeyboyj wrote:
How does the mantle work? - is the OP correct it gives a 2+ cover save at all times the bikes move in effect?

In theory yes, but it is a cover save so it is vulnerable to anything that ignores cover or jink (like Dark reapers. Basically don't try it against Tau.

The Mantle gives you Stealth, Shrouded and let's you re-roll cover saves, at the cost of losing Independent Character status.

PredaKhaine wrote:Good point - If I make a spiritseer on a jetbike rather than a would make my wraithguard troops and support my bikes a bit better.

Can the spiritseer take a jetbike? no codex atm...

No he can't :(

Damnit!

My aim was to build a 2k TAC force, with a good showing of aspect warriors - this is the whole reason I got into 40k in the first place. This is looking less and less do-able. IMO, No assault transports leaves scorpions and banshees on the shelf, Spiders are best in 5's and vehicle killing, hawks don't win against marines so I can't use them and dire avengers have to be supported by a farseer. Reapers are good but hideously expensive for a 2k list.

Are there any aspect warriors that don't have their job done better for cheaper by another unit in the codex?

**mixer86**

Scorpions are still awesome. the exarch basically carrys a power fist that strikes at initiative 6!

**shamikebab**

PredaKhaine wrote:

My aim was to build a 2k TAC force, with a good showing of aspect warriors - this is the whole reason I got into 40k in the first place. This is looking less and less do-able. IMO, No assault transports leaves scorpions and banshees on the shelf, Spiders are best in 5's and vehicle killing, hawks don't win against marines so I can't use them and dire avengers have to be supported by a farseer. Reapers are good but hideously expensive for a 2k list.

Are there any aspect warriors that don't have their job done better for cheaper by another unit in the codex?

Scorpions are excellent and don't need a transport (infiltrate them out of LOS and assault turn 2.

Warp Spiders are amazing, seriously amazing. for 190pts a full squad is lethal.

Reapers I agree are good but expensive, I'd rather take a Fire Prism.

Shining Spears I used against marines with some success, they're hard to kill (3+,4+ cover or 3+ cover when turbo boosting)

The only duff ones are Banshees really, everything else has it's use.

**mixer86**

shamikebab wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:

My aim was to build a 2k TAC force, with a good showing of aspect warriors - this is the whole reason I got into 40k in the first place. This is looking less and less do-able. IMO, No assault transports leaves scorpions and banshees on the shelf, Spiders are best in 5's and vehicle killing, hawks don't win against marines so I can't use them and dire avengers have to be supported by a farseer. Reapers are good but hideously expensive for a 2k list.

Are there any aspect warriors that don't have their job done better for cheaper by another unit in the codex?

Scorpions are excellent and don't need a transport (infiltrate them out of LOS and assault turn 2.

Warp Spiders are amazing, seriously amazing. for 190pts a full squad is lethal.

Reapers I agree are good but expensive, I'd rather take a Fire Prism.

Shining Spears I used against marines with some success, they're hard to kill (3+,4+ cover or 3+ cover when turbo boosting)

The only duff ones are Banshees really, everything else has it's use.

Quite correct sir.

Avengers are still good as well and will still do a job in small squads of 5. Their problem is if you want a 10 man squad the guardians do the same job for less points and for the same points as avengers you also get a warlock to conceal them and actually make them more survivable than avengers.

**PredaKhaine**

In the meta I'm in - people come equipped for eldar in cover - so they bring baal preds, Sternguard in pods, flamers out the wazoo etc - I can't really rely on cover saves on scorpions to keep them safe. Which is a shame cos they look awesome and I'm itching to use them again, cos I've haven't used them since 3rd ed... Hmm - if I put them in a serpent I can't charge and I get 10 less shots than Dire Avengers at 12"...stealth should work off a cover save from another unit...
Would leaping out of a wave serpent work as a counter charge unit if I stick some d-scythe wraithguard in front of them?
I'd need a different unit of troops though...

On warp spiders - I used 9 last night and ended up shooting vehicles with them. I could've used 5 and done the same job.

I've not checked out the spears yet, but my 5 might be getting dusted off if they're being recommended - I'll have a look

Thanks

**steinerp**

All of the aspects are viable, you just have to use them properly. None of them can be shoved down the enemy throat. Warp spiders are great, if you can't use their speed to avoid the one 2+ and FNP in a unit you are doing something wrong. Although I would target him and assign the AP1 wounds first which will cut through his feel no pain pretty quickly. Scorpions are solid and will beat most marine squads in combat. Hawks don't scatter and can run after shooting their stormbolters so they won't take much damage in return. Shining spears, dark reapers, fire dragons are all still useable.

**PredaKhaine**

Ok - I tried firing Avengers at corbulo - he gets a 3+, then a 2+ FNP (which isn't negated by ap1/2 - I thought its only got rid of by double strength guns?)
I won't make that mistake again. Next time, I'll use wraithcannon. If my guns don't work, I'll go and get bigger guns

The spiders had a fun time, they killed tanks and stuff - I didn't need 10 of them was all I said on that.
Scorpions *last time I used them before the new dex* got beat up by a tactical squad 1 vs 1. Now they have less attacks too. The exarch got a lot better - will he manage to kill an entire squad on his own?
In the meantime, Scorpions use a cover save and are T3 - heldrakes, baal preds, sternguard will ruin them before they can get into a combat. I think they'll still lose against marines in cc, so I'm reluctant to go for a turn 2 charge after infiltrating - I'll get charged first.
Mandiblasters = a round of lasgun fire before combat...

I thought Hawks got 3 shot lasguns. I didn't think they were st4?

**steinerp**

3 shots at Strength 3 is the same as 2 shots at Strength 4 vs. toughness 4. It is actually slightly better vs. T3 and slightly worse vs. T5.

**PredaKhaine**

steinerp wrote:
3 shots at Strength 3 is the same as 2 shots at Strength 4 vs. toughness 4. It is actually slightly better vs. T3 and slightly worse vs. T5.

Thanks - thats a good way of looking at it

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Had a thought.

If I fly over in the grav tanks, leap out with d-scythes and shoot, then disembark scorpions behind them with a spiritseer and Karandras - that should give me a 2+ cover save (stealth, shrouded and shooting through an enemy unit)

Will that be more dangerous to an opponant than 5 wraithguard?...

With that in mind, would this list work better?

Karandras
Spiritseer
Farseer
Spirit stone
Mantle
Jetbike

Scorpions
Exarch
Scorpions claw
Wave Serpent
Holo Fields
Starcannon

3 Jetbikes
Shuriken Cannon

3 Jetbikes
Shuriken Cannon

10 Dire Avengers
Exarch
Power Weapon and Shimmershield
Wave Serpent
Twin Linked Bright Lance
Holo Field

10 Dire Avengers
Exarch
Power Weapon and Shimmershield
Wave Serpent
Twin Linked Bright Lance
Holo Fields
Starcannon

Wraithguard
D-scythes
Wave serpent
Holo fields
Starcannon

Nightwing