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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/25 23:48:04
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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The three big names of Pink Floyd (Waters, Gilmour, and Mason) sent an OpEd to USA Today regarding the music service Pandora's attempts to cut artists' royalties by 85%. http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/06/23/pink-floyd-royalties-pandora-column/2447445/ Internet radio companies are trying to trick artists into supporting their own pay cut. Great music can inspire deep emotions, and businesses have long sought to harness this power in order to make money. Nothing wrong with that – everyone deserves to make a living – but too often it leads to less than scrupulous behavior. The latest example is how Pandora is pushing for a special law in Congress to slash musicians' royalties – and the tactics they are using to trick artists into supporting this unfair cut in pay. It's a matter of principle for us. We hope that many online and mobile music services can give fans and artists the music they want, when they want it, at price points that work. But those same services should fairly pay the artists and creators who make the music at the core of their businesses. For almost all working musicians, it's also a question of economic survival. Nearly 90% of the artists who get a check for digital play receive less than $5,000 a year. They cannot afford the 85% pay cut Pandora asked Congress to impose on the music community. Last year, we joined over 130 other bands and artists to oppose Pandora's campaign to cut the royalties paid for digital radio spins. Widespread artist opposition stopped them last year, so this year Pandora is trying to enlist artists support for their next attempt at passing this unfair legislation. Musicians around the country are getting emails from Pandora – even directly from the company's charismatic founder Tim Westergren – asking them to "be part of a conversation" about the music business and sign a simple "letter of support" for Internet radio. Sounds good. Who wouldn't want to be "part of a conversation"? Who doesn't support Internet radio? What scrooge would refuse to sign such a positive, pro-music statement? Of course, this letter doesn't say anything about an 85% artist pay cut. That would probably turn off most musicians who might consider signing on. All it says about royalties is "We are all fervent advocates for the fair treatment of artists." And the only hint of Pandora's real agenda is the innocent sounding line "We are also fervent supporters of internet radio and want more than anything for it to grow." The petition doesn't mention that Pandora is pushing the growth of its business directly at the expense of artists' paychecks. Fine print is one thing. But a musician could read this "letter of support" a dozen times and hold it up to a funhouse mirror for good measure without realizing she was signing a call to cut her own royalties to pad Pandora's bottom line. We've heard Pandora complain it pays too much in royalties to make a profit. (Of course, we also watched Pandora raise $235 million in its IPO and double its listeners in the last two years.) But a business that exists to deliver music can't really complain that its biggest cost is music. You don't hear grocery stores complain they have to pay for the food they sell. Netflix pays more for movies than Pandora pays for music, but they aren't running to Congress for a bailout. Everyone deserves the right to be paid a fair market rate for their work, regardless of what their work entails. We're not saying that the music business is perfect or that there is no room to compromise. Artists would gladly work with Pandora to end AM/FM's radio exemption from paying any musician royalties – a loophole that hurts artists and digital radio alike. Other changes and compromises may be possible as well. The open letter to Pandora that we signed last year said, "Lets work this out as partners" and that's what we should do. But tricking artists into signing a confusing petition without explaining what they are really being asked to support only poisons the well.
I love these guys. Seriously, I love their music and their stand on the issues of business.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/25 23:48:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 00:27:45
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Dang it Pandora why do you have to make me hate you? I've found so many great bands through that service. I really don't want to have to boycott it because they're screwing over musicians.
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'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 00:39:01
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Fixture of Dakka
Kamloops, BC
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MrMoustaffa wrote:Dang it Pandora why do you have to make me hate you? I've found so many great bands through that service. I really don't want to have to boycott it because they're screwing over musicians.
Just use YouTube, Wikipedia, allmusic, etc they make finding good music easier.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 00:41:00
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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Somehow Pink Flyod crying that they can't afford the paycut seems hollow to me. Reminds me of a South Park episode
But yeah. Not cool Pandora. Of course I never heard of your service until that video about why MTV doesn't show music videos anymore XD
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 00:50:24
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Wraith
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LordofHats wrote:Somehow Pink Flyod crying that they can't afford the paycut seems hollow to me. Reminds me of a South Park episode 
Yeah, that was my initial thought. Pandora does have a lot of music from much, much smaller artists who probably don't make truckloads of money, though.
I liked Pandora but I guess I'm done listening to them until they back down from this stance. Oh well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 01:55:48
Subject: Re:Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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This read to me like Pink Floyd were standard bearing on behalf of other musicians, using their name to promote this.
Unlike, say, Lars Ulrich, who's just a money grabbing, bitter and repellent hobgoblin.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 03:12:58
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Cheesecat wrote: MrMoustaffa wrote:Dang it Pandora why do you have to make me hate you? I've found so many great bands through that service. I really don't want to have to boycott it because they're screwing over musicians. Just use YouTube, Wikipedia, allmusic, etc they make finding good music easier.
Yeah, but they didn't find cool new music for me while I'm putting minis together, mowing the lawn, driving to work, etc. (never tried allmusic though, I'll look it up) I could type in say AC/ DC and then get a ton of lesser known bands that fit that same kind of style. Tons of the bands I listen to now I would've never found without Pandora, since these bands wouldn't exactly be linked to a major video on youtube, mentioned in a wikipedia article, etc. It was just a quick and easy to use option, that was free to boot.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/26 03:13:21
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 03:21:11
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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iHeartRadio does a better job than Pandora anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 06:35:04
Subject: Re:Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Kid_Kyoto
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On one hand, I like seeing artists get paid. On the other hand, I wonder how much of that money actually makes it past the ever-gorging fanged maw of the industry.
Especially when internet based radio companies have higher royalties than radio stations because of the "...on a computer" effect.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 0006/06/29 14:22:30
Subject: Re:Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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[DCM]
The Main Man
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daedalus wrote:On one hand, I like seeing artists get paid. On the other hand, I wonder how much of that money actually makes it past the ever-gorging fanged maw of the industry.
Especially when internet based radio companies have higher royalties than radio stations because of the "...on a computer" effect.
It depends on if the artists are working with a major record label or not. There are way more self-produced or boutique-produced artists nowadays then there ever were before, and a lot of smaller labels. For a lot of them internet royalties could be a pretty big deal (because there's a good chance it's the only royalties they're ever likely to get).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 13:17:23
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Old Sourpuss
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I stopped using Pandora because of their "royalties" issues.
I got an email back in April stating that I was coming up on my 40 hours per month of mobile device streaming, I was like "wtf? I've never gotten this before." Turns out, if you listen to Pandora through their app and not through their website, they restrict your free ad supported listening to 40 hours a moth. As someone that used it during the work day, I was not a happy camper because it was like April 15th. My initial reply was that I could stream for an unlimited amount via their website, I could upgrade to Pandora One, or I could pay .99 cents for unlimited ad supported play till the end of the month. I explained my situation and why I could not stream via their website (work doesn't let us stream through their computers, but the free wireless put out by the building we rent in was what everyone uses). So I told them flat out, if I could stream on my iPod through their website I would, but I wasn't going to pay for their service when other free services (like iHeartRadio, which I said in the email) existed.
The reply I got was literally a copy and paste of the previous message, with Pandora stating that if I used the skip function or thumbs down it uses up the full time of the song because they still have to pay the royalties on that song, and that they would give me 200 more free plays. I spent all 200 of those free plays thumbs downing a new station to show my disdain, and replied to their email saying that I was changing to iHeartRadio and other alternatives.
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 13:20:15
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I like Pandora. I don't like this development. I'll be watching and judging. Everyone.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/26 13:20:34
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 14:31:07
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Major
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To be fair this is not about Floyd saying 'we want more money'. This is not another Metallica vs Napster moment. I read it as them speaking out on behalf of other smaller artists who may well really will be damaged by this and don't command the same sort of attention as Floyd.
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"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 22:53:03
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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Pandora has issued a response.
http://music.yahoo.com/news/pandora-pink-floyd-wrong-royalty-cut-184042623-rolling-stone.html
tldr: IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!
Pandora: Pink Floyd Wrong About Royalty Cut
Pandora has responded to Pink Floyd's claims that the company is "tricking artists" into supporting a massive royalty cut, saying the rockers have been given "badly misleading information." In a statement published by Business Insider, the music streaming and discovery service pointed to "a well-orchestrated campaign by the RIAA and their lobbying arm to mislead and agitate artists" as the culprit.
The three surviving members of Pink Floyd accused Pandora of seeking to cut musicians' pay for digital radio play by 85 percent, though a similar plan failed last year – partially because of a letter signed by more than 125 artists including Pink Floyd, Billy Joel and Rihanna. While Pink Floyd accused Pandora of "tricking artists into signing a confusing petition without explaining what they are really being asked to support," the streaming service says the 85 percent figure is incorrect, and notes that Pandora pays songwriters and performers more than comparable services.
The source of Pink Floyd's 85-percent figure is also unclear; though the band linked to an article in The Register, Business Insider points out that the piece doesn't cite a source for the number.
Pink Floyd have had an uneasy relationship with the music's new digital landscape: though they recently agreed with Spotify on a streaming deal for their catalog, they held out for years, and their label, EMI, signed a deal with the streaming service in 2011 without the rights to Floyd's music. The rockers also sued EMI in 2010 for allowing single-song downloads, instead of full-album purchases, on iTunes.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/26 22:53:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 23:18:08
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
WA
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The rockers also sued EMI in 2010 for allowing single-song downloads, instead of full-album purchases, on iTunes.
Why do that?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/26 23:51:55
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote: The rockers also sued EMI in 2010 for allowing single-song downloads, instead of full-album purchases, on iTunes. Why do that?
Have you ever listened to a Pink Floyd album in it's entirety? The whole album is meant to be listened to as a whole. The songs flow into one another and tend to have an underlying theme (some people call this a concept album) Albums like Pink Floyd's "The Wall" and "The Dark Side of the Moon" and The Who's "Quadrophenia" and "Tommy" all have underlying themes and the songs on them are much better when listened to with the rest of the album (they also make a lot more sense) Selling individual songs off of it screws with what the band was trying to do. It's like if instead of paying 10 bucks to buy the entire "Saving Private Ryan" movie, you paid 99 cents just to get the beach scene. Yes that scene may be cool and all, but it loses a lot of it's meaning and weight without the rest of the movie to support it. Many bands in the 70's had this attitude and refused to release singles, or at least resisted for a long time. It's starting to pop up again here and there with bands like the Raconteurs and Pearl Jam, but I doubt it'll ever really catch on thanks to how things like iTunes has spoiled us with as many singles as we want. From a business perspective, you make more money selling a whole album than selling a single song or two. They put all that work into recording an album after all, what's the point if 90% of your customers just buy 2 or 3 songs off of it and leave the rest? If they wanted to do that, they could just record nothing but singles and save themselves a lot of money.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/26 23:52:47
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/27 00:04:33
Subject: Re:Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Kid_Kyoto
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Yeah, breaking up a Pink Floyd album is kind of like chaining a beautiful eagle in a dark, black, damp basement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/27 00:08:18
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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MrMoustaffa wrote: They put all that work into recording an album after all, what's the point if 90% of your customers just buy 2 or 3 songs off of it and leave the rest?
COnsumer demand. A lot of people through out the 80's and 90's bought whole albums just to get 1 or 2 songs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/27 00:10:23
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Kid_Kyoto
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LordofHats wrote: MrMoustaffa wrote: They put all that work into recording an album after all, what's the point if 90% of your customers just buy 2 or 3 songs off of it and leave the rest?
COnsumer demand. A lot of people through out the 80's and 90's bought whole albums just to get 1 or 2 songs.
Well, I guess then it depends on if you're "artists", or if you're creating a product to be shoveled out to consumers en masse.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/27 00:27:33
Subject: Pink Floyd vs. Pandora
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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Artists do what they do their audience does what it does. So turns the world.
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