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So from what I've been reading it looks like Vanilla SM has a lot of trouble with the new Eldar dex (due to their relative inability to deal with 6+ skimmer lists) as well as some trouble with the new Tau dex. This is unlikely to change significantly until the new codex later this year, which limits our options for viable lists. Suggestions I've seen so far include:

Thunderstorm list: Take everything good (librarians, 3xThunderfire, 3xStormtalon), absolute minimum troops, and induct the ally of your choice (Guard and Tau are the two that get brought up) to help deal with the stuff that Marines have problems with (ie: Guard Blobs, Hydras(?????), Broadsides w/interceptor upgrade + Commander, etc)

Full Drop Pods: Drop 40-50 marines the first turn to alpha strike what you can, and hope your opponent can't recover.

Land Raider Spam: 3+ Land Raiders, and clench tightly if the opponent brings BL/Melta spam of their own.

Am I missing anything or are these now considered the generally viable builds for Vanilla SM?

nobody wrote:
So from what I've been reading it looks like Vanilla SM has a lot of trouble with the new Eldar dex (due to their relative inability to deal with 6+ skimmer lists) as well as some trouble with the new Tau dex. This is unlikely to change significantly until the new codex later this year, which limits our options for viable lists. Suggestions I've seen so far include:

Thunderstorm list: Take everything good (librarians, 3xThunderfire, 3xStormtalon), absolute minimum troops, and induct the ally of your choice (Guard and Tau are the two that get brought up) to help deal with the stuff that Marines have problems with (ie: Guard Blobs, Hydras(?????), Broadsides w/interceptor upgrade + Commander, etc)

Full Drop Pods: Drop 40-50 marines the first turn to alpha strike what you can, and hope your opponent can't recover.

Land Raider Spam: 3+ Land Raiders, and clench tightly if the opponent brings BL/Melta spam of their own.

Am I missing anything or are these now considered the generally viable builds for Vanilla SM?

A good TAC list has plenty of firepower for dealing with skimmer heavy lists. I don't consider any of those lists viable because they are not balanced.

Vanilla SM lists are still viable, especially with allies. We still have one of the better HQs in the game: the vanilla librarian with null zone. Our troop choices are absolutely garbage (or overcosted mediocrity, however you want to call it), but that's always been the case. Sterngaurd are still stellar as they can take the special weapons to suit the occasion, and have the delivery mechanism necessary (rhino/razorback/Drop Pod), we still have terminators (both assault [lacking a delivery mechanism] and tactical [better now especially with CML]), we have Stormtalons, and we have TFCs. Plus there are fun things we can do with the codex that are actually viable like taking Khan and outflanking massive things (KHAAAAAN!!!), going a bike heavy list, and we get many good allies. There are still options.

The big downside I'm finding is a loss of practicality for TH/SS Assault terminators as they were our only counter-CC unit. However now with allies it's not so much a problem.

PanzerLeader wrote:

nobody wrote:
So from what I've been reading it looks like Vanilla SM has a lot of trouble with the new Eldar dex (due to their relative inability to deal with 6+ skimmer lists) as well as some trouble with the new Tau dex. This is unlikely to change significantly until the new codex later this year, which limits our options for viable lists. Suggestions I've seen so far include:

Thunderstorm list: Take everything good (librarians, 3xThunderfire, 3xStormtalon), absolute minimum troops, and induct the ally of your choice (Guard and Tau are the two that get brought up) to help deal with the stuff that Marines have problems with (ie: Guard Blobs, Hydras(?????), Broadsides w/interceptor upgrade + Commander, etc)

Full Drop Pods: Drop 40-50 marines the first turn to alpha strike what you can, and hope your opponent can't recover.

Land Raider Spam: 3+ Land Raiders, and clench tightly if the opponent brings BL/Melta spam of their own.

Am I missing anything or are these now considered the generally viable builds for Vanilla SM?

A good TAC list has plenty of firepower for dealing with skimmer heavy lists. I don't consider any of those lists viable because they are not balanced.

A variation of the first list has been making its rounds at tournaments, and has done very well for itself.

As to your statement that a good TAC list can handle the Eldar skimmer spam, if I may ask, what would you qualify as a good TAC list that would be capable of handling the 6 Wave Serpent+3 Fire Prism build?

nobody wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

nobody wrote:
So from what I've been reading it looks like Vanilla SM has a lot of trouble with the new Eldar dex (due to their relative inability to deal with 6+ skimmer lists) as well as some trouble with the new Tau dex. This is unlikely to change significantly until the new codex later this year, which limits our options for viable lists. Suggestions I've seen so far include:

Thunderstorm list: Take everything good (librarians, 3xThunderfire, 3xStormtalon), absolute minimum troops, and induct the ally of your choice (Guard and Tau are the two that get brought up) to help deal with the stuff that Marines have problems with (ie: Guard Blobs, Hydras(?????), Broadsides w/interceptor upgrade + Commander, etc)

Full Drop Pods: Drop 40-50 marines the first turn to alpha strike what you can, and hope your opponent can't recover.

Land Raider Spam: 3+ Land Raiders, and clench tightly if the opponent brings BL/Melta spam of their own.

Am I missing anything or are these now considered the generally viable builds for Vanilla SM?

A good TAC list has plenty of firepower for dealing with skimmer heavy lists. I don't consider any of those lists viable because they are not balanced.

A variation of the first list has been making its rounds at tournaments, and has done very well for itself.

As to your statement that a good TAC list can handle the Eldar skimmer spam, if I may ask, what would you qualify as a good TAC list that would be capable of handling the 6 Wave Serpent+3 Fire Prism build?

My base build is:

Bike CPT (TH, SS, Artificer Armor)
Full bike squad with power fist, 2x plasma
10 marines, lascannon, plasma rifle
TFC
Devestators (4x missile launcher)
3 attack bikes with multimeltas
Storm talon with lascannon
Rune Priest with LVL 2, chooser of slain
10 gray hunter w/ 2x flamer, rhino
10 gray hunter w/ 2x Melta, rhino
ADL with quadgun

The list has a lot of strength 7+ shooting with enough 48 inch range to help offset Eldar speed. The mobility of the bikes helps close to destroy is assault when needed.

PanzerLeader wrote:

nobody wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

nobody wrote:
So from what I've been reading it looks like Vanilla SM has a lot of trouble with the new Eldar dex (due to their relative inability to deal with 6+ skimmer lists) as well as some trouble with the new Tau dex. This is unlikely to change significantly until the new codex later this year, which limits our options for viable lists. Suggestions I've seen so far include:

Thunderstorm list: Take everything good (librarians, 3xThunderfire, 3xStormtalon), absolute minimum troops, and induct the ally of your choice (Guard and Tau are the two that get brought up) to help deal with the stuff that Marines have problems with (ie: Guard Blobs, Hydras(?????), Broadsides w/interceptor upgrade + Commander, etc)

Full Drop Pods: Drop 40-50 marines the first turn to alpha strike what you can, and hope your opponent can't recover.

Land Raider Spam: 3+ Land Raiders, and clench tightly if the opponent brings BL/Melta spam of their own.

Am I missing anything or are these now considered the generally viable builds for Vanilla SM?

A good TAC list has plenty of firepower for dealing with skimmer heavy lists. I don't consider any of those lists viable because they are not balanced.

A variation of the first list has been making its rounds at tournaments, and has done very well for itself.

As to your statement that a good TAC list can handle the Eldar skimmer spam, if I may ask, what would you qualify as a good TAC list that would be capable of handling the 6 Wave Serpent+3 Fire Prism build?

My base build is:

Bike CPT (TH, SS, Artificer Armor)
Full bike squad with power fist, 2x plasma
10 marines, lascannon, plasma rifle
TFC
Devestators (4x missile launcher)
3 attack bikes with multimeltas
Storm talon with lascannon
Rune Priest with LVL 2, chooser of slain
10 gray hunter w/ 2x flamer, rhino
10 gray hunter w/ 2x Melta, rhino
ADL with quadgun

The list has a lot of strength 7+ shooting with enough 48 inch range to help offset Eldar speed. The mobility of the bikes helps close to destroy is assault when needed.

Interesting, has it fought the 9 skimmer list from the new Eldar codex yet? And how well did it do?

nobody wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

nobody wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

nobody wrote:
So from what I've been reading it looks like Vanilla SM has a lot of trouble with the new Eldar dex (due to their relative inability to deal with 6+ skimmer lists) as well as some trouble with the new Tau dex. This is unlikely to change significantly until the new codex later this year, which limits our options for viable lists. Suggestions I've seen so far include:

Thunderstorm list: Take everything good (librarians, 3xThunderfire, 3xStormtalon), absolute minimum troops, and induct the ally of your choice (Guard and Tau are the two that get brought up) to help deal with the stuff that Marines have problems with (ie: Guard Blobs, Hydras(?????), Broadsides w/interceptor upgrade + Commander, etc)

Full Drop Pods: Drop 40-50 marines the first turn to alpha strike what you can, and hope your opponent can't recover.

Land Raider Spam: 3+ Land Raiders, and clench tightly if the opponent brings BL/Melta spam of their own.

Am I missing anything or are these now considered the generally viable builds for Vanilla SM?

A good TAC list has plenty of firepower for dealing with skimmer heavy lists. I don't consider any of those lists viable because they are not balanced.

A variation of the first list has been making its rounds at tournaments, and has done very well for itself.

As to your statement that a good TAC list can handle the Eldar skimmer spam, if I may ask, what would you qualify as a good TAC list that would be capable of handling the 6 Wave Serpent+3 Fire Prism build?

My base build is:

Bike CPT (TH, SS, Artificer Armor)
Full bike squad with power fist, 2x plasma
10 marines, lascannon, plasma rifle
TFC
Devestators (4x missile launcher)
3 attack bikes with multimeltas
Storm talon with lascannon
Rune Priest with LVL 2, chooser of slain
10 gray hunter w/ 2x flamer, rhino
10 gray hunter w/ 2x Melta, rhino
ADL with quadgun

The list has a lot of strength 7+ shooting with enough 48 inch range to help offset Eldar speed. The mobility of the bikes helps close to destroy is assault when needed.

Interesting, has it fought the 9 skimmer list from the new Eldar codex yet? And how well did it do?

Not yet. I'm sure it will at the next tournament. I don't expect to be too far behind the power curve though. This list consistently beats Tau.

I still run a Vulkan drop pod list and its competitive.

 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:
I still run a Vulkan drop pod list and its competitive.

Oooh! Beat me to it. Drop Pod Salamanders have been bery bery good to me.

Personally, I think that when kitted correctly, the tactical squad is a really good choice. I know some people are distressed by the lack of specialization there, but I get almost nothing but positive results from them.

I'm still in love with my pods, can fit nine in at 1850 points, lots of killy. Four pods deploy their long range bits on the table, the rest DPA in their face. It can be bloody, but its fun and competitive

Drop poding might be viable again, since the Heldrake has made Warp Quake -casters less popular.

I'm thinking 3 pods full of Sternguard, 3 Storm Talons for anti-air, and maybe 3 TFC.

PanzerLeader wrote:
My base build is:

Bike CPT (TH, SS, Artificer Armor)
Full bike squad with power fist, 2x plasma
10 marines, lascannon, plasma rifle
TFC
Devestators (4x missile launcher)
3 attack bikes with multimeltas
Storm talon with lascannon
Rune Priest with LVL 2, chooser of slain
10 gray hunter w/ 2x flamer, rhino
10 gray hunter w/ 2x Melta, rhino
ADL with quadgun

The list has a lot of strength 7+ shooting with enough 48 inch range to help offset Eldar speed. The mobility of the bikes helps close to destroy is assault when needed.

With all due respect, this is a SW list with C:SM allies. Do you think it's possible to make a TAC list with the same capability if you were to use C:SM as the main detachment? Without allies?

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

With all due respect, this is a SW list with C:SM allies. Do you think it's possible to make a TAC list with the same capability if you were to use C:SM as the main detachment? Without allies?

No, actually that is C:SM main with SW allies.

I dont understand why he has devastators instead of long fangs though

Also, I would give the biker captain a relic blade instead of TH.

Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
My base build is:

Bike CPT (TH, SS, Artificer Armor)
Full bike squad with power fist, 2x plasma
10 marines, lascannon, plasma rifle
TFC
Devestators (4x missile launcher)
3 attack bikes with multimeltas
Storm talon with lascannon
Rune Priest with LVL 2, chooser of slain
10 gray hunter w/ 2x flamer, rhino
10 gray hunter w/ 2x Melta, rhino
ADL with quadgun

The list has a lot of strength 7+ shooting with enough 48 inch range to help offset Eldar speed. The mobility of the bikes helps close to destroy is assault when needed.

With all due respect, this is a SW list with C:SM allies. Do you think it's possible to make a TAC list with the same capability if you were to use C:SM as the main detachment? Without allies?

Without allies, I'd replace the rune priest with a generic librarian and the gray hunter squads with 5 man squads in razorbacks. That keeps you at four scoring units and adds some longer range fire to make up for the loss of specials. That leaves you with 65 extra points to play around with, so you could even drop the lascannon off the talon and squeeze in a second flyer.

Polecat wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

With all due respect, this is a SW list with C:SM allies. Do you think it's possible to make a TAC list with the same capability if you were to use C:SM as the main detachment? Without allies?

No, actually that is C:SM main with SW allies.

I dont understand why he has devastators instead of long fangs though

Also, I would give the biker captain a relic blade instead of TH.

The devastations are a modeling choice. All my SW are modeled as Deathwatch and I haven't converted any yet. This army is the one I went to a couple of GTs with and so painting/theme were a concern. I find the AP2 and concussive rule on the TH are better for me in the local meta. He can still use his I5 on sweeping advances and the TH and the 3++ give him the chance to take down bigger monsters/character threats.

Polecat wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

With all due respect, this is a SW list with C:SM allies. Do you think it's possible to make a TAC list with the same capability if you were to use C:SM as the main detachment? Without allies?

No, actually that is C:SM main with SW allies.

I dont understand why he has devastators instead of long fangs though

Also, I would give the biker captain a relic blade instead of TH.

I must have mistaken the bike troops for command squad on bikes.