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Hey everybody, I am participating in a 1750 tournament in the next coming month and have been changing my list around quite a bit. I am looking to get some positive feedback on how this list looks and any obvious strengths/weaknesses.

HQ
Avatar- 205
-Fast Shot


Troops
Dire Avengers- 160
-Exarch, PW/SS
-Wave Serpent- 145 (TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields)

Guardian Defenders- 110
-Brightlance

Guardian Defenders- 110


Elites
Fire Dragons- 110
-Wave Serpent- 145 (TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields)


Fast Attack
Vyper Squadron- 140
-2 models, BL's, Shuriken Cannons

Warp Spiders- 110
-Exarch, TL DS


Heavy Support
Fire Prism- 140
-Holofields

Wraithlord- 125
-Ghostglaive

Wraithknight- 250
-Ghostglaive/Scattershield


The purpose of this list is to begin the game with everything on the board being very mobile and very hard to get a quick kill. If cover is not as readily available, the wraith units can help to provide the vehicles with a cover save while the vehicles shelter the warp spiders and vypers. The wraith units are not equipped with range weapons in order to make the most use out of running, and the vehicles will flat out to get into a position to attack a flank. The warp spiders will either deep strike or trail behind the vehicles in order to block line of sight. If I get lucky on my warlord traits, I may even opt to deep strike the wraithknight. Deep striking him otherwise would be pretty dangerous though. The guardians will most likely be held in reserve, unless my opponent's list demands that certain vehicles die immediately. I feel like the list has good synergy using units that are durable and dependable backed by dependable fire support from units like the vypers, warp spiders, fire prism, and the aspects. My primary response to air will be the TL Serpent Shield shots in coordination with the brightlances. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In order to field this list however, I would need to buy another wave serpent which may or may not be an option. Another potential list would be:

HQ
Avatar- 205
-Fast Shot

Autarch-95
-Banshee Mask, Avenger's Catapult, Power Sword

Troops
Dire Avengers- 160
-Exarch, PW/SS
-Wave Serpent- 145 (TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields)

Guardian Defenders- 110
-Brightlance

Guardian Defenders- 110


Elites
Fire Dragons- 110


Fast Attack
Vyper Squadron- 140
-2 models, BL's, Shuriken Cannons

Warp Spiders- 110
-Exarch, TL DS


Heavy Support
Fire Prism- 150
-Holofields, Shuriken Cannon

Falcon- 160
-Scatter laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields)

Wraithknight- 250
-Ghostglaive/Scattershield


The fire dragons would then ride in the falcon which would fill the same role but add some more dedicated anti tank shots, the falcon would replace the wraith lord in order to remove the potentially slowest unit in the army for the initial push (excluding the Avatar), and the Autarch would ride with and support the Dire Avengers in their role as well as adding or subtracting to reserves roles to help keep guardians where I need them (safe or on the board). Is this list as viable as the first?

I hate both lists. just saying it isn't going to work. Having the wraiths to absorb fire is fine, but they don't get much from the heavy melee focus...they are just an inch more effective in close combat than their ranged counter parts. You are essentially trying to do the monsterous creature overload, but you don't have enough other fire to support it. Once your MC's go down you have some guardians, some avengers in a WS and vypers and spiders. The only really dangerous things are the avengers (which are overcosted...40 points less for same amount of shots from bare bones guardians), the serpent, and the warp spiders. The guardians won't make it into range. Its hard to contest objectives with such immobile troops (other than the one DA squad). Also for 1750 too little troops. The vypers are going to die quick and don't put out enough shots to justify the lances. For the same points you can get 4 lance walkers. What other models do you have? I will help you build a list if you want. Right now you are trying to go in too many directions at once without focusing on list coherency and how to win the missions.

Do not like those lists at all I would change the wraithknight set out to make it basic with heavy D cannons as its all good with a 5++ but the glaive is useless no one takes it. Same for the wraithlord your better off sticking guns on them. Avatars a good choice but take out the autarch for a farseer. Its more competitive hope this helps.

Ok, then. Here are all of the models that I own currently.

-Eldrad
-Maugan Ra
-Avatar
-1 Autarch with wings, DA catapult and PS
-2 Farseers (Both are witchblades, but my spear model in my thumbnail might be able to go as a spear seer.)
-9 Warlocks (6 spears 3 swords)
-2 10 man squads of Dire Avengers. 2 PW/SS autarchs and 1 TL catapult model for exarch possibilities.
-2 10 man squads of Guardian Defenders, any heavy weapon.
-1 5 man unit of rangers
-1 Wave Serpent (any loadout)
-1 6 woman unit of banshees with Executioner Exarch.
-1 6 man unit of scorpions with Claw
-1 5 man unit of Fire dragons, no exarch model
-1 6 man unit of Harlequins with Troupe Master and 5 kisses. No shadowseer model yet.
-1 5 man unit of Wraithguard, all wraithcannons
-1 5 man unit of Warp Spiders, Exarch with TL DS
-2 Vyper models (any loadout)
-1 5 man unit of Dark Reapers, Exarch with Tempest
-1 Fire Prism (any loadout outside of nightspinner)
-3 War Walker models (any loadout)
-3 Wraithlords (any loadout)
-1 Wraithknight (any loadout)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, after looking at the list but before checking dakka again, I noticed a lot of those problems in the list. You'll probably dislike this one as well, but the list I am currently sitting with is:

HQ
Avatar- 195

Farseer- 100

Troops
Dire Avengers- 160
-Exarch, PW/SS
-Wave Serpent- 135 (TL Scatter Laser, Holofields)

Guardian Defenders- 110
-Brightlance

Guardian Defenders- 110


Elites
Fire Dragons- 110


Fast Attack
Vyper Squadron- 150
-2 models, BL's, Holofields

Warp Spiders- 110
-Exarch, TL DS


Heavy Support
Fire Prism- 140
-Holofields

Falcon- 150
-Scatter laser, Holofields)

Wraithknight- 280
-Suncannon/Scattershield

Any better?

drop falcon or fireprism for 3 walkers with BL run guardians with no platform in WS. possibly drop FD's for Scorps and the other heavy support tank for Dark Reapers. See how those changes treat you...I don't like the Vypers tbh...if you run them run 2 Shuriken Cannons on them and just dakka the heck out of everything, while the Walkers and wraithknight take AT duty. also change wraithknight back to Heavy Wraithcannons. you don't need the 5+ invul when you got cover

Are the wraithcannons worth bringing him at all for? At least the suncannon is heavy 3 S6 AP2 Blast, the wraithcannons are essentially 2 Wraithguard models with some buffed range.

Also, I have not had good luck running scorpions in small unit sizes, would I need to buy more to max them out?

Personally I wouldnt nother with scorpions. They are basically assualt marines without packs.

As you have no good way to deliver them (assualt vehicle etc) I think your better off focussing on dakka then on a small assualt unit.

Here's my advise... Take two lords and a knight. Give lords dakka, leave knight with wraith cannons. People no like lots of T8.

Thanks for the suggestion ninjafiredragon, and I've heard of it working very well. I've had some success with it in smaller point games, but the problem in higher point games is that more often than not the wraith units just get ignored and I lose all of my foot infantry. :(

After some revisions to the list, let me know what you guys think of this one:

HQ
Avatar- 205 (Fast Shot)

Farseer- 105 (Spear)

Warlocks- 70 (2 locks for the guardians)

Troops
Dire Avengers- 160
-Exarch, PW/SS

Dire Avengers- 160
-Exarch, PW/SS

Guardian Defenders- 110
-Brightlance

Guardian Defenders- 110
-Brightlance

Fast Attack
Warp Spiders- 110
-Exarch, TL DS

Heavy Support
War Walker Squadron- 210 (3 Models, each SL/SL)

Dark Reapers-230
-5 man, Exarch with Tempest, Starshot missiles, Fast Shot

Wraithknight- 280
-Suncannon/Scattershield


Loses just about all of its' mobility with the loss of the transports I own, but makes use of the shooty heavy support options that I have. I would add more guardian squads if I owned them, but I will just be using Dire Avengers in a slightly more forward role along with the Avatar. The Farseer will remain back with the heavy support in a guardian squad in order to throw out Guide/Prescience to my heavies. Thoughts?

I like the most recent list a lot more. solid anti tank, solid anti meq solid anti teq

Would this one be even more solid? If I picked up another Wave Serpent I could:

HQ
Farseer- 100

Warlocks- 70 (2 locks for the guardians)

Troops
Dire Avengers- 160
-Exarch, PW/SS
-Wave Serpent- 135 (TL SL, Holo)

Dire Avengers- 160
-Exarch, PW/SS
-Wave Serpent- 135 (TL SL, Holo)

Guardian Defenders- 110
-Brightlance

Guardian Defenders- 110
-Brightlance

Rangers- 60


Heavy Support
War Walker Squadron- 210 (3 Models, each SL/SL)

Dark Reapers-220
-5 man, Exarch with Tempest, Starshot missiles

Wraithknight- 280
-Suncannon/Scattershield

I read a little bit of your blog qballony, and I really like the list that you put up in your battle report. I wanted to take the wave serpent pouncing concept and work it into my list as well, but seeing as how our collections are different, I think it would work best in my situation with DA's. Which list is stronger?

Da's on foot...Guardians with no platforms in serpents...that's my 2cents b/c the guardians need to be delivered, while the 18" shooting on DA give them an effective range of 24" pre fleeted Battle focus, so they are a much stronger backfield board presence.

I guess we're just seeing different strengths. I understand that guardians are cheaper, especially with no platform, and can be effective when delivered, but I see Guardians as being more the backfield presence because they are essentially meatshields for their heavy weapon platform, while the DA's are more of a midfield presence specifically for their longer gun range, better armor save, 5+ invulnerable, and decency for a CC speed bump unit because of the Exarch. I'm sure it could work either way though. I might play around with the points that are freed up if I ran the guardians in the wave serpents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, with the 40 extra points from taking off the platforms, I could afford to give the DR's back fast shot, equip both Wave Serpents with chin cannons, and add a spear to both warlocks since the guardians would be in more of a forward role.

Plus you could then drop the Exarch and the upgrades to keep them cheapish backfield holders with a midfield presence

I can definitely see the strengths. Just takes a bit of a mental shift from the old codex, but I'll give it some playtesting. Since I'd be losing the Brightlances on the guardians, i'll have to rework the heavy weapons in my list to get some AT again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HQ
Farseer- 100

Warlocks- 80 (2 locks with spears for the guardians)

Troops
Dire Avengers- 130

Dire Avengers- 130

Guardian Defenders- 90
-Wave Serpent- 135 (TL SL, Holo)

Guardian Defenders- 90
-Wave Serpent- 135 (TL SL, Holo)

Rangers- 60


Fast Attack
Warp Spiders- 120
-Exarch, TL DS, Fast Shot

Heavy Support
War Walker Squadron- 210 (3 Models, each SL/BL)

Dark Reapers-220
-5 man, Exarch with Tempest, Starshot missiles

Wraithknight- 240
-Heavy Wraithcannons

Like this?

try it out for a few games and see how YOU like it. Thing is about eldar now, is that you have a variety of lists you can play. Find out what elements you like about your list. If you find the small unit of Spiders is giving up first blood a lot after a few games bump them up.

Best advice is to play play play and learn how YOU play with each unit not how its supposed to be played.

For me personally I play in waves...I like to hit hard and fast and first. I usually deploy behind a lot of terrain, usually with 2 maxed spider units on one flank, 3x2 walkers with lances in ruins/behind cover in the middle and Wave serpents on far flank or in between the walkers and spiders. Then I infiltrate Rangers or plop on home objective out of the way and infiltrate scorps with claw on same side as my spiders.

What this does is allow for a metric ...well a lot of pressure first turn with wave serpents moving up 12 then firing
and Spiders doing their Warp jump + run to get into that magic 12" range. and then the Scorpions move up and either get ready to assault or if they are going first assault anything that moved up.

what this allows me to do is to use my backfield to still strike while giving immediate threats that must be dealt with but in 3 squads of 10 with 3+ armor, hard to remove especially in cover.

On my next turn who cares if my 2 GJB squads come in...if they come in hide them...try to keep them out of the way as much as possible EXCEPT if things are outflanking trying to take objectives, then take both in at the same time with autarch if you can for 8 TL str 4 AP 5 "rending" and 6 str 6 ap 5 "rending" shots, which will at least damage severely 90% of all outflanking scoring units.

What I do with the rest of my army though is dance forward with Warp Spiders again. Push the Scorps as a spear head as far up as they can sacrificing them for the greater good of winning. The real magic is the Guardians in the Wave Serpents. Move 6" keeping your front av12 facing unload 6" to about the front of the serpent. Mow down w/e is in front of you with 20 bs4 str 4 ap 5 "rending" shots. If unit lives (you should kill about 5 marines on average) you run away with Battle Focus/fleet.

At this point you have so much pressure up field and too many threats to deal with...you overwhelm them essentially. Thats just my style and how i play. I am a super aggressive player who if I am to win, it needs to be now, not 3 turns from now. I am to cripple whatever hurts me the most turn 1 and am generally pretty successful between 12 lances 2 serpents with average of 9 ignore cover TL str 6 shots, and 40 Death Spinner shots, and 8 TL Scatter Laser shots, and if i'm really lucky I'll pin something with rangers, but lets get real, that'll never happen. Also most people are rightly afraid of the scorpions, becuase they put out a lot of CC pressure and with infiltrate are incredibly dangerous.

I like limiting options of my opponent with mobility and turn 1 annihilation of whatever needs to die, but that's just me and how I PREFER to play, not how everyone should. So try it out and let us know how it goes