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Ok, just want to make sure I am not bat gak crazy and this makes sense.

There was some serious shenanigans in the last tournament I went to, where the TO had (shamefully in my opinion, since he didnt even look at the rules, he just caved) ruled that Shadowsun and an allied farseer where able to join a riptide. Now lets be clear, I am not talking about a riptide with drones, which like a prime joining a unit of fexes is legal, though wonky, but perfectly legal, I am saying he join shadowsun and a farseer to "bare" riptides.

The guy was arguing, that even though they are without drones in his list, because they dont always count as "single monstrous creatures" that it is perfectly legal to join IC to them. Now, even though the TO caved, every other vet player I spoke to about this asked one simple question..."did he take drones with it?" to which I replied "no" to which they without hesitation answered "then he cant join things to it"

Now it would be one thing if I was raging cause blah blah shenanigans, he was my opponent and I lost whatever... I didn't even play this guy, but something about the whole situation really urked me.

Am I crazy, or is this SERIOUSLY another horrendous "grey area" in the rulebook that needs to be resolved by GW?

This isn't a grey area at all. How you select the unit in your list has no bearing on whether or not ICs can join them. If the model isn't a vehicle, or something that can only ever be a unit of one model, ICs are free to join it.

So the TO's call was spot on. (Assuming that Tau and Eldar are Battle Brothers... don't have the rulebook at hand, and can't remember for sure).

 insaniak wrote:
This isn't a grey area at all. How you select the unit in your list has no bearing on whether or not ICs can join them. If the model isn't a vehicle, or something that can only ever be a unit of one model, ICs are free to join it.

So the TO's call was spot on. (Assuming that Tau and Eldar are Battle Brothers... don't have the rulebook at hand, and can't remember for sure).

They are.

Indeed, while some people debate it the army list doesn't change how the rules work. A lot of people do not like the gimmicks that can be worked out with the right combination of armies, and seek to undermine those gimmicks simply on the ground of 'it isn't fair and shouldn't be allowed.' I admit it is quite low myself, but then until more codex are updated that can be said about any gimmick based around the newer and more powerful models that Games Workshop is trying to up-sell. Shadowsun and a riptide is not the worse of it, and I plan to take advantage of that one myself as it is one of the few counters to the heavier stuff in the newer codexs.

In this case the rules are clear, page 39 have them written out and in the first paragraph I would like you to take extra care of the word always in the limitations.

And note, it doesn't have anything to do with monstrous creatures, but "... units that always consist of a single model".

As others have said, this is perfectly legal. It's not about it being an MC, but rather the squad is always a maximum of 1 or not.

But I do believe Shadowsun is T3 as is a farseer? Making the majority toughness of that squad T3. Do enjoy shooting at it.

Edit: Ninja'd

Edit 2: Just checked my roomates Tau codex. Yes, Shadowsun is T3. That should, to my understand, mean you resolve all shots at the squad of a Farseer, Shadowsun and a Riptide as if they were T3.

Which is why you should take the drones with them, in this combination, to keep the toughness equal with the riptides.

The real biggest downside to the drones is the fact they count towards moral tests for casualties. Many don't touch them because the Riptide might forget it is in towering battle suit and run away if even one drone is destroyed. With a HQ unit attached not only do you need to inflict even more casualties before that happens, but the leadership test is far easier to pass as well.

I thought majority toughness would mean shadow sun is T6?
if the Toughnesses are 50/50 I thought the higher takes precedence..so wouldn't that make the riptide and shadow sun T6?

A lone riptide and two HQ units where used in this example, the two HQ units where T3.

Isn't this how people use Tyranid Primes and Carnifexes?

Thanks for the clarification..

I should have been more clear, the two hqs were joined to seperate individual riptides, so T6 from the tides


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I understand, and I do feel it is cheese regardless if it works or not, I simply thought the in paranthesis section after that sentence specified that if it is a single monstrous creature it can never be joined... and since joining does not occur in your list, but at the start of the game, and since it starts the game as a single monstrous creature, it can never be joined.

It is an example, using the term such as to highlight it being an example. Examples are not part of the rule, they are simply situations in which this rule might come into effect used to show the intent of the rule. Nor are they the be all and end all of the rule, even though I do see a lot of people trying to argue as if they are the only situations the rule is evoked for.

So if you have an elite infantry unit that is always a single model, you can not attach the Independent Character to them either.

Is it cheesy?
A little bit, but no more then any other standard gimmick you will find in any codex. Just being a tactic that has allows a powerful unit to operate at it's peek efficiency is not grounds to outright deny what is a legal move. As more and more codex's come out, that gimmick is going to become a normal tactic, considered nothing special, as the new codex will have it's own things to complain about. In fact, it is likely to become a 'really consider using this if you don't want to be wiped' maneuver that is needed to counter other combinations we will undoubtedly see in the future.

 gameandwatch wrote:
I simply thought the in paranthesis section after that sentence specified that if it is a single monstrous creature it can never be joined

There is no such rule. MCs are never given different rules for joining, they're just mentioned as an example of a non-vehicle unit that commonly consists of a single model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gameandwatch wrote:
and since joining does not occur in your list, but at the start of the game, and since it starts the game as a single monstrous creature, it can never be joined.

But that doesn't matter. A Riptide is not a unit that always consists of a single model because it is a unit that can have 1-3 models. Therefore ICs can always join it even if you don't purchase the additional models.

 Peregrine wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
I simply thought the in paranthesis section after that sentence specified that if it is a single monstrous creature it can never be joined

There is no such rule. MCs are never given different rules for joining, they're just mentioned as an example of a non-vehicle unit that commonly consists of a single model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gameandwatch wrote:
and since joining does not occur in your list, but at the start of the game, and since it starts the game as a single monstrous creature, it can never be joined.

But that doesn't matter. A Riptide is not a unit that always consists of a single model because it is a unit that can have 1-3 models. Therefore ICs can always join it even if you don't purchase the additional models.

So you are OK with Tyranid players taking a Prime with a guardless Tyrant? Or with a flyrant gliding around with the Parasite?

No.

The Hive Tyrant is always a unit of a single model.

It gives you the right to purchase an extra unit of Hive Guards, and if you have a unit of Hive Guard you can your Tyrant to them but they are still two units.

Not true. While joined the Tyrant is a member of the tyrant guard unit, as he joins as if he were an IC

BEcause he joins the TG unit, the TYRANTS unit size never changes - it is either one model, or the unit doesnt exist (it is a normal member of the TG unit (page 39), so is no longer the Tyrant unit)


You have the right answer, but the wrong reason

Yeah you are right. I meant it right, expressed it wrong. With the 2 units I actually meant they still count as 2 VP when killed in Kill Points for instance.

But yes you are right, he becomes a part of the Guard unit at that point like an MC.

The end effect is still though, a Prime or a parasite cannot join an unaccompanied Tyrant.

And tyrants cannot take 2 drones, so it is always a unit of 1. The Riptide is not.

Fragile: Yup agreed.

Solo, since noone answered your question, Yes, because Carnifex's unit is 1-3, Primes can freely join the unit.

Yonush wrote:
Solo, since noone answered your question, Yes, because Carnifex's unit is 1-3, Primes can freely join the unit.

Wait what? I know that ICs can join other ICs and MCs, but I I thought MCs couldn't join another MC?

Primes aren't MCs they're ICs. And there's no restriction on MCs joining anything if they're also an IC (of which there's only sort of one - a Hive Tyrant).

Tyrants aren't ICs. I don't think there are any MC ICs.

Eldrad is T4 though, so that unit would still be T6.

Are Missle drones counted? I have not seen this really resolved anywhere.

Page 33 if the Tau Codex, section titled Unit Upgrade Drones, first sentence.

barnowl wrote:
Are Missle drones counted? I have not seen this really resolved anywhere.

theyrfe models in the unit. They have always counted, this codex is no exception