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2013/06/28 11:02:23
Subject: 1750 Eldar vs Hybrid Chaos BatRep and some Tactical Questions
Played a game last night against my friend Nivoglibina's Eldar. It was a brutal, exiting and enjoyable game with beer, wine and tasty bits to nibble on.
The reason I'd like to share it, is because I was happy with the way my list performed, and still some damage seemed unavoidable and I'd like to run some of the tactical choices by you lot.
There were no pictures taken, but I've made some diagrams to compensate. Hope things are clear and the flow of the battle can be followed.
The Soulgrinder, Heldrake and Plaguebearers start in reserves
The Mission was Emperors Will (1 Objective each in own deploymentzone) and Pitched Battle deployment. Eldar have the initiative and deploy first.
The Table was as follows:
Deployment as follows:
Eldar:
Chaos:
Chaos did not manage to steal. Turn 1 is NightFighting.
Eldar Turn 1:
Spoiler:
The Fleshhounds make a scoutmove into the Ruins nearby.
A Farseer Fortunes the Wraithknight and Presciences some stuff.
Eldar shooting targets the Lord of Change. Although he had 6 wounds, was behind 4+ cover and although it was nightfighting he dies! The guilty party was a Wave Serpent that rolls 6 for shots with the shieldcannon ignoring cover. He hits and wounds all and I fail all but one save. Combined shooting from the other Serpent and the Wraithknight finishes it... Nice start of the game
Chaos Turn 1:
Spoiler:
I respond by rushing him. My Sorcerer casts Invisibility on the Spawn and himself. The Fleshhounds form a screen. In the shooting phase I run most things and use Puppetmaster on a Wave Serpent. A nice pile of dice only manages to kill one Warwalker.
Eldar Turn 2:
Spoiler:
His WarpSpiders and Swooping Hawks arrive from reserves. The WarpSpiders don't scatter on DS.
His Wraithknight moves up to engage the Fiends (strange choice).
Combined shooting from his entire army kills all but three Fleshhounds and two chaos Spawn. His dice don't disappoint, my saves however are not so hot...
In assault his prescienced Wraithknight kills 2 Fiends and receives a wounds in return for his efforts. His Shining Spears + Farseers finish of the Fleshhounds without returndamage.
Chaos Turn 2:
Spoiler:
In my turn 2 the Heldrake, Soulgrinder and Plaguebearers all arrive. The Soulgrinder and Plaguebearers are place agressively centerfield on the right, but both scatter 10+" towards my tableedge.
The Heldrake Vector Strike kills 2 Shining Spears and wounds a Farseer.
My Sorcerer detaches from the Spawn and moves to assault the Shing Spears together with the Maulerfiend.
The Spawn prepare to engage either the Swoopings Hawks or the Wraithknight.
Shootingphase: my CSM kill 3 WarpSpiders, The Soulgrinder fails to spit the Hawks in the face and thus the Heldrake is forced to contemplate on what to do and chooses to fry the Swooping Hawks.
In assault my Spawn pile into the combat with the Wraithknight who is now WS1 and I1. The Wraithknight receives 2 more wounds and does no damage in return.
The Maulerfiend and Sorcerer whif against his Shining Spears only killing 1. The Farseers make 6 or 7 invulnerable saves and to add insult to injury proceed to Immobilise the Maulerfiend. They hit and run into the Ruins to the left.
Eldar Turn 3:
Spoiler:
Eldar Movement consist of the Hawks moving to engage the Soulgrinder, some shuffling with the Serpents and Warwalkers (Firedragons disembark) and the Shining Spears moving towards the CSM on the left.
Eldar shooting removes some of the left CSM and the Sorcerer gets gibbed by the Dragons.
In assault the Wraithknight fails to touch the Daemonkind while they mutate some additional claws dripping with poison. The Wraithknight suffers a further 2 wounds.
The Shining Spears and Farseers charge the CSM and unleash the power of their Lances. The CSM do not survive...
Chaos Turn 3:
Spoiler:
The Forces of Chaos continue the onslaught and the CSM move to intercept the Shining Spears.
Those CSM shoot pistols and a Meltagun (The hit and run Exarch was the first model - the CSM were hoping to kill him and lock the Eldar in place for a few turns). Their shooting does nothing...
The Helldrake swoops over a Serpent and removes two hullpoints while immobilising and stunning it. The Baleflamer kills all but one Warp Spider.
The Soulgrinder now hits and spits burning helfire into the face of the Fire Dragons. All but one die a horrible death.
In the assaultphase the CSM charge the Shining Spears. Two die to overwatch. They still make the charge. However that combat proves to end disastrous for Chaos. The Marines fail almost all saves they are required to make and the 4 Marines that are left standing after the Eldar attacks, fail to hit anything. Their morale broken by the Eldar fury, the Marines run like cowards and are cut down by the persuing Jetbikes.
The combat against the Wraithknights ends more fortunate. The Fiends manages a rend after a few rounds of doing nothing, and the Wraithknight dies. The Spawn and Fiend consolidate.
Eldar Turn 4:
Spoiler:
The lone Warpspiders flees into the Ruins. The Warwalkers and Jetbikes move towards the Plaguebearers and the Shing Spears and psychers make a move for my objective.
Shooting by the WaveSerpent kills two Spawn and the Warwalkers and Rangers kill some Plaguebearers.
There is no assault this turn and the Eldar shuffle a bit in the shooting and assaultphases with Battlefocus and Jetbikemoves.
Chaos Turn 4:
Spoiler:
The Heldrake surprises the Eldar by switching to hovermode. His flamerattack sets fire to the ruins, but the WarpSpider refuses to die.
Warwalkers are hit by the Soulgrinders Phlegm and one explodes.
The Fiends prepares to assault the Firedragon and the Spawn targets the Immobilised tank.
The FireDragon proves to be a stuborn bastard. The Tank however is less resilient and gets punched into submission by the Spawn.
Eldar Turn 5:
Spoiler:
The last Waveserpent plans to transport the Guardians onto the Chaos objective and moves flat out accros the battlefield. The remaining Shining Spears and Psychers move to support them in their efforts. The WarpSpider attempts to teleport himself into the heart of the battle but his foot gets stuck behind a piece of wire and he is ripped appart by his own portable warpdrive... The FireDragon kills the Fiend in combat and consolidates towards the Soulgrinder with visions of even greater glory. The Rangers and Warwalker kill and additional Plaguebearer while the Jetbikes move into range of their own objective.
Chaos Turn 5:
Spoiler:
Hovering with the Heldrake proves to have been a sound move. It returns to swooping and vector strikes and burns the remaining Shing Spears. Only the Two Farseers survive. The Soulgrinder lines up for a desperate assault against the WaveSerpent.
In the Assaultphase the Soulgrinder makes his 9"charge and engages the Tank, which does not survive. The Serpent explodes, killing 4 embarked soldiers who are then pinned.
The Plaguebearers however fail a 6" chargemove through terrain by rolling 1, 1, 2... So far for contesting the Eldar Objective.
The Game ends on a roll of 2.
The Forces of the Eldar have First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker in addition to the Objective they hold. The forces of Chaos failed to score any points...
Crushing victory for the Forces of the Eldar!
Hope you enjoyed it. Will post more thoughts and questions later!
Cilithan
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/06/28 12:47:52
Fiery the angels fell; deep thunder rolled around their shores; burning with the fires of Orc.
I don't know how many more battle reports I can bear to watch where Chaos Space Marines loses. I guess I write these posts to attract some attention to how extreme Chaos Space Marines' situation is. I think Chaos Space Marines win every 25th match...
Thank you for taking your time though, must be a bit time consuming to write such a battle report. Good luck next time, I hope you'll post that too.
Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose.
2013/06/28 12:14:17
Subject: 1750 Eldar vs Hybrid Chaos BatRep and some Tactical Questions
Very nice battle report, thanks. After the LoC died in t1, it was an uphill battle. It's good to see the CSM themselves partook in the fighting, too often they're relegated to a backfield role.
2013/06/28 12:19:47
Subject: 1750 Eldar vs Hybrid Chaos BatRep and some Tactical Questions
Chaospling wrote: I don't know how many more battle reports I can bear to watch where Chaos Space Marines loses. I guess I write these posts to attract some attention to how extreme Chaos Space Marines' situation is. I think Chaos Space Marines win every 25th match...
Thank you for taking your time though, must be a bit time consuming to write such a battle report. Good luck next time, I hope you'll post that too.
He wins often enough! The new Eldar codex seems to be a bad match up for chaos though.
I misjudged a lot of distances, for instance exposing my spiders to the marine squad was unnecessary. Several times my Farseers were out of range/los to be able to cast the buffs/debuffs. Even with those kind of mistakes, it was still an Eldar win.
To explain why the Wraithknight chose the fiends as target: To me it was the most attractive choice to shoot at as S10 IDs them. Failing to hurt them by shooting, I figured assault would kill them off, 5 s10 attacks, prescience and HoW combined with Demonic instability ought to do the trick IMO.
I can't complain about bad luck seeing the rest of my dice rolls.
2013/06/28 12:21:50
Subject: 1750 Eldar vs Hybrid Chaos BatRep and some Tactical Questions
Chaospling wrote: I don't know how many more battle reports I can bear to watch where Chaos Space Marines loses. I guess I write these posts to attract some attention to how extreme Chaos Space Marines' situation is. I think Chaos Space Marines win every 25th match...
Thank you for taking your time though, must be a bit time consuming to write such a battle report. Good luck next time, I hope you'll post that too.
Oh don't worry, I win my share as well.
Two of my friends are playing the new codices, Tau (Shrubs - see above) and Eldar (Nivoglibina). And I must admit, it takes some adjusting.
Cover doesn't mean as much anymore and the type of list I'm using has to weather an enormous amount of firepower on the way in.
Still, I think I'm getting better at dealing with these codices and the margins by which I'm loosing are diminishing ;-)
All kidding aside, it is frustrating sometimes. Especially when rolling Hammer and Anvil deployment or when failing the first Grounding Test / failing a crucial charge, etc.
Still, I really enjoy playing the type of list I used in this game and I'm a firm believer that the list is good enough with some minor tweaks.
The tweak I'm contemplating after this battle is switching the Plaguebearers for Pink Horrors. The fact that I couldn't run with the Plaguebearers was too costly. And the Plaguebearers aren't that much tougher anymore with cover meaning less after the Eldar and the Tau codices.
The main thing that bugs me from last nights battle is the fact that I can't figure out what I should've done differently to avoid loosing the LoC in the first turn.
The Wave Serpents have a 60" range multiple shots Strength 7 (often twinlinked) weapon that ignores cover. It's hard to see how I could avoid it with a LoC that isn't yet airborne.
Putting the LoC in reserves is very risky in that it can't impact the game one turns 1 and 2 when it's most needed, and there's the chance of not turning up till turn 4.
I'm not sure what to do there...
Cilithan
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/06/28 12:27:41
Fiery the angels fell; deep thunder rolled around their shores; burning with the fires of Orc.
Well on a more positive note, it was refreshing to see no Plague Marines, Noise Marine or Nurgle Obliterators in the Chaos list, very!
Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose.
2013/06/28 13:45:35
Subject: 1750 Eldar vs Hybrid Chaos BatRep and some Tactical Questions
Chaospling wrote: I don't know how many more battle reports I can bear to watch where Chaos Space Marines loses. I guess I write these posts to attract some attention to how extreme Chaos Space Marines' situation is. I think Chaos Space Marines win every 25th match...
Thank you for taking your time though, must be a bit time consuming to write such a battle report. Good luck next time, I hope you'll post that too.
ill correct that for you: I don't know how many more battle reports I can bear to watch where Chaos Space Marines fail to make good armylists...
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/06/28 13:52:04
Subject: 1750 Eldar vs Hybrid Chaos BatRep and some Tactical Questions
Nice report! Not often you see a fellow Dutchy. The images make it very clear what happens. You might want to look into http://www.battlechronicler.com/ though, I assume it would be easier than using Paint.
One thing I was wondering: What caused the Wraithknight to become I1 and WS1 in Chaos turn 2? I'm not 100% familiar with the CSM and CD codexes, but I glanced through them and couldn't see anything that caused it.
The unit of Fiends was buffed with invisibility (telepathy psychic power). I1 is from the fiends, anything in combat with them is reduced I.
Because both shots from the Wraithknight failed to wound, I did not realize Invisibility was up. Hence the assault follow up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/28 14:03:35
2013/06/28 14:03:21
Subject: 1750 Eldar vs Hybrid Chaos BatRep and some Tactical Questions
Redemption wrote: Nice report! Not often you see a fellow Dutchy. The images make it very clear what happens. You might want to look into http://www.battlechronicler.com/ though, I assume it would be easier than using Paint.
One thing I was wondering: What caused the Wraithknight to become I1 and WS1 in Chaos turn 2? I'm not 100% familiar with the CSM and CD codexes, but I glanced through them and couldn't see anything that caused it.
Thnx for the link :-) I'll look into it for next time. Nice to see you've enjoyed it. The Wraithknight was a combination of the Fiends making it I1 because of their Sopoforic Musk special rule and the Spawn having Invisibility cast on themselves.
@Nivo: The Fiends were not Invisible, the Spawn were. And that only the turn after. When you charged the Fiends only made your Initiative -5. The WS1 came a turn later.
ill correct that for you: I don't know how many more battle reports I can bear to watch where Chaos Space Marines fail to make good armylists...
Enlighten me, what do you consider a good CSM list? I'm open for suggestions.
Cilithan
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/28 14:05:17
Fiery the angels fell; deep thunder rolled around their shores; burning with the fires of Orc.
Ah, Invisibility. Did you recast it on the Spawn in turn 2? Also, if the Spawn are invisible, couldn't the WK just target the Fiends to attack at his own WS? Of course he'd still be WS1 for the purposes of the Spawn attacking him.
Also, Sopoforic Musk only works in the turn the Fiends charge, so he shouldn't have been I1.
Redemption wrote: Ah, Invisibility. Did you recast it on the Spawn in turn 2? Also, if the Spawn are invisible, couldn't the WK just target the Fiends to attack at his own WS? Of course he'd still be WS1 for the purposes of the Spawn attacking him.
Also, Sopoforic Musk only works in the turn the Fiends charge, so he shouldn't have been I1.
Ah, upon rereading I see I've made a mistake. Thanks for correcting me. Wont make those mistakes again... And Invisibility was indeed recast turn 2...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/28 14:18:16
Fiery the angels fell; deep thunder rolled around their shores; burning with the fires of Orc.
Sorcerer, Bike, ML3, Forcesword, Invisibility/Puppet Master/Psychic Shriek
LoC, ER (Portalglyph+Staff), GR (+1 wnd, IWND), ML3, Forewarning/Prescience/Scryers Gaze
3 Fiends of Slaanesh
10 CSM, Autocannon, Meltagun
10 CSM, Autocannon, Meltagun
10 Plaguebearers
10 Fleshhounds
5 Chaos Spawn, MoN Heldrake
Maulerfiend
Soulgrinder, MoK, Phlegm
Enlighten me, what do you consider a good CSM list? I'm open for suggestions.
Cilithan
Well first of all you need to have a gameplan and a specific duty for every unit, secondly the unit needs to have focus.
10 csm with heavy and assault is really crappy considering you cant combatsquad so the guy with the autocannon will run and snapfire or slow the squad... yes idd, troop choices in CSM codex Nurgle with additions (TM) is limitid
you have a little bit of everything, you need to run pairs , especially with maulerfiends and Helldrakes, not saying it is not cool but you lack the edge of the knife.
What about:
Changing the Sorcerer to a lord of nurgle on bike,
add the steeds to the dog unit for more of them,
change the csm in plagues with plasma and melta,
change the mauler fiend into a drake,
and give the soulgrinder either Slaanesh/flamer or Nurgle/Pieplate
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/28 22:16:06
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/07/02 09:10:53
Subject: 1750 Eldar vs Hybrid Chaos BatRep and some Tactical Questions
Valek wrote: Well first of all you need to have a gameplan and a specific duty for every unit, secondly the unit needs to have focus.
10 csm with heavy and assault is really crappy considering you cant combatsquad so the guy with the autocannon will run and snapfire or slow the squad... yes idd, troop choices in CSM codex Nurgle with additions (TM) is limitid
you have a little bit of everything, you need to run pairs , especially with maulerfiends and Helldrakes, not saying it is not cool but you lack the edge of the knife.
What about:
Changing the Sorcerer to a lord of nurgle on bike,
add the steeds to the dog unit for more of them,
change the csm in plagues with plasma and melta,
change the mauler fiend into a drake,
and give the soulgrinder either Slaanesh/flamer or Nurgle/Pieplate
Thanks for your reply Valek: I appreciate your imput and I have used it in evolving my list into something new.
I agree with your analyses that especially the troops choice department lacks focus. Especially in light of the general theme of the list.
I have however not changed it in a direction as suggested. I don't think a Nurgle Lord is worth it compared to some of the other choices. Not even when they're used to buy Plague Marines as troops. I don't doubt they work for you. I've tried them and choose to pass. They're not really for me. Mostly because I deame them too expensive for something that is still a slow troopschoice. This can be remedied by taking a Rhino, but that's the other thing: I don't believe in Rhino's either; I can't make them work. A second Drake is not needed. I'd rather have the Maulerfiend. It adds a different threatprofile to the list. One that has allready proven usefull vs. Tau and Eldar who are horrific with their S5-7 shooting, but don't stack on S8+ weaponry. The Maulerfiend can be used in that way to exploit any eventual weaknesses and tank overwatchfire for something weaker.
What I have done is give the Troopsdepartment more focus, something that will help the general theme of the list. I wil try the following next time:
I don't think you will consider it much of an improvement, but your suggestions helped me non the less, so thanks!
On a further note:
As far as protection the LoC goes, we - my friends and I - haven't been able to come up with a better plan then to reserve the LoC when playing Wave Serpent Eldar/Cover ignoring Tau and starting second. Anyone else have a better tactic?
Cilithan
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/02 09:15:29
Fiery the angels fell; deep thunder rolled around their shores; burning with the fires of Orc.
Hey mate, I see where you are going with this and it is fine,
I like the addition fo Huron, he is very good for the points.
But would you consider changing deamonettes to 10 plaguebearers, they are great objecitve grabbers,
then add the dogs up to 18if possible; if you then infiltrate the spawns/soulgrinder/maulerfiend (depending on the D3 roll) with them your opponent will surely have some choices to make.
Protecting the LOC, put him behind LOS blocking terrain or behinde the Soulgrinder, that should make him untargettable, second turn he can fly and take the grimoire boost if needed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/02 11:23:31
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things