Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all,

Had the idea while reading the discussion regarding FMC benefiting from Cover Saves while Swooping. Very simply, is a FMC eligible to G2G following an enemy shooting attack? Can this be combined with 'Dive' at the same time?

Assumptions:
- FMC is Swooping
- FMC is not Fearless (IE- Daemons)
- For sake of argument, FMC is not trying to claim any sort of Cover save from terrain or line-of-sight. Bare open board.

Rules support:
- Pg 18, 'Go to Ground': Declared after the enemy has rolled hits & wounds, but before saves / allocation, you can declare G2G. Models immediately receive +1 to Cover saves / 6+ in the open. A unit that has G2G cannot move, run or charge, limited to snapshots. If forced to move, the effect is immediately removed. FAQ adds that if a model that has G2G is made Fearless through a rule/Psychic power, the effect is immediately removed and he can act as normal.
- Pg 49: 'Flying Monstrous Creatures': Move between Glide or Swoop, chosen at the start of your turn. Swooping moves 12"-24", 90* pivot and moves over terrain/models. Extended run, cannot be charged. If threatened, it can declare 'Jink' at the cost of snapshots next turn.
- Pg 38: 'Jink': 5+ Cover save for moving in movement phase. 4+ if Turbo / Flat Out.

At first glance, there is nothing to state that a FMC cannot G2G, only that Jink is a better rule. However they are triggered from the same set of circumstances and do not appear to be mutually exclusive. It seems like a model could both Jink and G2G for a 4+ Cover save in the open. Contrary to what would be expected, this also doesn't 'Ground' the MC in terms of making it easier to shoot or assault.
To further the argument, the effect is removed if the model is ever forced to move or if the model suddenly gains Fearless. If the MC in question were a Telepathy Daemon Prince, it could Jink/G2G for sick cover and then cast Mental Fortitude on itself the following turn to completely remove any penalties. Alternatively, a FMC in Swoop mode 'must move at least 12". Does this qualify as an effect where forced movement removes the effects of G2G?

So to recap:
Flying Daemon Prince of Nurgle with L3 Telepathy.
When fired upon, declare both Jink and G2G. Combined with Shroud, = 2+ Cover save at all times. In your subsequent turn, cast Mental Fortitude to remove the effect and charge as normal.

Legit?

Mozzamanx wrote:

- FMC is not Fearless (IE- Daemons)

I thought all monstrous creatures, flying or otherwise, were Fearless.

 Jimsolo wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:

- FMC is not Fearless (IE- Daemons)

I thought all monstrous creatures, flying or otherwise, were Fearless.

Nope. Most are, but not all.
Daemons, Daemon Princes, Dreadknight, and Riptide are not Fearless (not sure about Wraithlord.Wraithknight, probably are). All others either have the Fearless special rule listed or have a special rule that grants Fearless.

They aren't.

Pg 48 and 49 of the main rulebook, no mention of Fearless under the special rules for either FMcs of Mcs.

Edit: Ninja'd

They have Fear standard (which doesn't confer Fearless or resistance to Fear itself).

And yes, since Daemons aren't Fearless they can go to ground.

Not true. Monstrous Creatures benefit from:
Fear, Hammer of Wrath, Move through Cover, Relentless and Smash. They can also shoot 2 weapons in the shooting phase.

Flying monsters gain Vector Strike in addition to those above (and 'Relentless Smash' ).

It's a rare treat to catch a Riptide in a Sweeping Advance for this very reason.

Well, don't I feel salty.

There you go, then.

Mozzamanx wrote:
a FMC in Swoop mode 'must move at least 12". Does this qualify as an effect where forced movement removes the effects of G2G?

To answer this question, no this does not remove the Gone to Ground restrictions.

So you can not declare swooping, you would have to declare gliding and then stay stationary.

They are talking about involuntary movement such as falling back, not voluntary movement such as Swooping. This is because you are not forced to move, you declare how you're going to move, so Gliding it is.

I expected as much, and it seems perfectly reasonable. However regarding the main argument, are there any limitations that prevent both Jink and G2G as responses to the same shooting?

Jink is giving by dive, which isn't changing you out of swooping. The better question is could a FMC dive and still get grounded then once grounded G2G.

You don't need to get grounded to G2G, so yes.

Yes, you could Dive and then GtG. It would however force the MC to glide and remain stationary next turn so the usefulness is limited.

I don't think that is necessarily an issue though since he can make a 24" Swoop in his turn and fling himself up the board. The subsequent shooting phase sees him getting shot and hopefully he passes his saves.
The following turn, declare 'Glide' and cast Mental Fortitude on himself. Move 12" and assault as normal.

This entire rules argument can also be applied to the CSM Prince with a Mace. It is a pricey package at over 300pts, but it seems like it has potential.

Things that will still kill him dead:
- Ignore Cover weaponry that is direct-fire, not Blast. So Sonic Blasters or Markerlight-boosted kit that doesn't use templates.
- Grounding tests. Even then you could try and fly him over area-terrain so he lands with a nice save.

24" + 2d6" run, never forget the run. If you get Crusader on him as well....