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What unit is best point for point?

Edit: Ok, since you guys aren't too keen on getting into any discussion on this, let me come with some pros and cons.

Spawn; The way I see it, spawns biggest pro is the fact that they are beasts and W6 making them resistant to STR10 instakill. Many people run them with a biker lord or biker sorcerer with great success, though this is a small hindrance for both units. Beasts have fleet and bikes have turbo-boost. This will lets the lord move 24" and the beasts 13"-18" with a reroll of the run dice. When it comes to the charge the spawn can reroll charge distance and the lord cannot.

Putting the spawn with a khorne lord on juggernaut takes away the STR10 instakill resistance.

The beasts would have to run alone firstly because nurgle heralds are slow and secondly because attentionseeker will not work with a herald in it.

A point that is often forgotten is the fact that the spawn take up a valuable spot in the CSM fast attack slot, but the beasts are elite.


Saves and survieability:
I'd say the beasts take a marginal victory. Do you use a lot of STR10?

In the beasts of nurgle you do get a few nice rules. First of all, you get shrouded and a 5+ invoul, which is very good compared to the spawns... Nothing. You do get a 33% chance of getting +4 armor save in CC then again you'd probably want one of the other two gifts once you're in CC. The spawn can outweigh all of this with the T:6. The beasts get 4W and the spawn has 3W. Also the beasts can regrow a wound every round on a 5+. They also have defensive grenades giving them stealth from shooting within 8", that would be a 4+ cover with shrouded.

Beasts also have slime trail. No big deal really.

Daemonic instability ld:7 vs. fearless. Daemonic instability can hurt.

Speed:
spawn takes this one. Able to get 40%-45% longer each round is pretty useful

Reroll charge range for both. Tough the beasts can't run.. yes, they are in fact beasts that cant run.. The spawn reroll their run distance.

CC:
Beasts takes this one.
Beasts get one more attack than the spawn and are always poisoned (4+) which is a pretty big deal. Spawn does have the mutated beyond reason, they can get a poisoned 4+ or reroll attacks or 4+ armor save.

Spawn w/ MoN: 36
BoN: 52

I must say the way it stands I say the beasts could be worth it.

Just edited my post.

Ok so some thoughts here

3 Nurgle Spawn = 108 points for 9 T6 Fearless wounds with No save

2 Beasts of Nurgle = 104 points for 8 T5 wounds with a 5++/Shrouded, and It will not die.

It takes 81 WS/BS 4 S4 attacks to kill the 3 spawn

It takes 54 WS/BS 4 S 4 Attacks to kill the Beasts

The Advantage shifts more toward the beasts at higher levels. However against units that win combat Spawn will be at an advantage due to fearless.

In combat Vs 10 Marines, assuming the charge for both

3 Spawn average 16 attacks (on the low end because it depends on their powers)

The 2 Beasts Average 11 attacks.

Marines hit first Do 1.2 wounds to spawn, 1.63 to beasts

Spawn hit back and Do 1.78 wounds, Beasts d0 1.375 so Spawn are at an advantage offensively.

And Beasts potentially lose combat which means instability.

Against each other assuming no charge

Spawn swing first
11 attacks, do 1.8 wounds

Beasts Swing back 9 attacks and deal 2.25 wounds.


It seems to me like spawn are better against most targets, but beasts gain an advantage against targets relying on toughness for durability. That said as a tar-pit Instability is a huge liability (the fact that you can randomly lose your entire squad should you lose combat.)

Also factor in that Spawn are more able to carry a CC character with them to help tip things in their balance.

I'd much rather take Spawn. No instability is big and as Breng pointed out, they are more cost efficient.

All of it really depends on the list though.. what does that look like?

Yup to me the big issue with Beasts is instant Death, while force weapons suck for both units picture the Beasts/spawn against Grey knights. Lets just say a 5 man strike squad with a hammer (on justicar) and 4 swords.

Spawn get into the fight, probably nothing happens with the Swords. They hit back and kill a marine or 2, the hammer hits back wounds and force weapons a spawn. The Spawn lose combat but are fearless and don't care.

Same with the beasts, swords probably don't wound. The beasts swing and kill one marine. The hammer swings back, most likely wounds, and force weapons a Beast (in fact they could have just hammer handed and instant killed you and did a wound with the swords as well, which is a big deal). Now you have lost by 3. You take LD on a 4 So on average you take 3 additional wounds.

 LValx wrote:
I'd much rather take Spawn. No instability is big and as Breng pointed out, they are more cost efficient.

All of it really depends on the list though.. what does that look like?

Thanks for the feedback, those are valid points. If i buff my list up to 2k, i might switch the spawn for BoN and get another heldrake.


Biker lord - bike, PF, BBoS, Mon, SoC, blight - 185

Biker squad x8 - plasma x2, PF - 225


Spawn x4 - MoN - 144


Plague marines x6 - plasma x2, MB, Rhino - 214

Plague marines x6 - plasma x2, MB, Rhino - 214

Heldrake - baleflamer - 170


Allies

Herald of Khorne - Juggernaut, 1 lesser gifts, locust of wrath - 130

Bloodletters x 10 - 100

Flesh hounds x16 - 265

Aegis w/ quadgun - 100

1748

You almost got everything. Just 2 more things to consider.

1. Spawn are cheaper.
2. Beasts of nurgle, can dissapear if they lose combat through instability tests. They are ok in close combat, but against something dedicated to assault, they will evaporate once they get to the fight.