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Hello everyone.

I've recently been graced with a wonderful painting job by my friend of my forgeworld avatar and I would love an opportunity to use it in game. I usually play Ulthwe, and as such like to minimize my aspect warriors in favor of Guardians and Guardian-piloted vehicles (serpents, War Walkers, etc.) along with heavy use of psykers. Here's the list I've come up with as a balance between fluff and pragmatism. Any thoughts are welcome:

5 Warlocks, all with Witchblade

1 Spirit Seer, no wargear

Avatar with Fastshot

5 Dire Avengers inside a TL SL + SC Wave Serpent

10 Guardians /w Shuriken Cannon HWP

10 Guardians /w SC HWP + TL SL and SC Serpent (not deployed inside)

3 Wraithlords, each with 2 flamers, SL and Brightlance.

The idea is to keep the serpents flanking each side of the guardians, having the guardians walking alongside the Avatar, providing cover & eating shots for the avatar and Wraithlords which act to take out anything significantly threatening. Around turn 4, have the serpent carrying the avengers swerve off and cap an objective. The Seer and Warlocks will walk between the lords and avatar, generally tossing out powers and being as much of hinderance as possible. Their real threat, though, is increased chances at getting destructor/renewer to restore wounds to hurting MCs. Thoughts?

Avatar needs Monster Hunter so he can stand up to other MCs.

Seer council needs jet bikes, Farseer fits better than Spirit.

DAs are poor no need for them, they don't work well with Serpents. Yet your guardians who need the Serpents due to 5+ save and 12" range are walking thus frankly beggars belief. Guardians do not distract fire from Avatar.

SL and BL on the Wraithlords is a bad combo. They have different targets. Go double BL or get a weapon that compliments the SL.

Dire Avengers in a Serpent are just fine, don't agree with Fling there. But not at a 5-man unit size. Their uniqueness over Guardians comes with the Exarch and Invuln. Otherwise you'd be better off with Guardians.

Council will struggle on foot, adding some Warlocks to the Guardians would be fine though. Invest in Singing Spears if you can for the Warlocks, it adds much needed versatility to the unit for VERY cheap.

Farseer over Spiritseer if you are going with that many Warlocks is a good idea. Especially with no Wraith-units to benefit from the FOC movement.

SL/BL combo Wraithlords aren't terrible, the Laser Lock makes the combo more viable than Fling gives it credit for. Sure it is less max DMG against high armor value items, but you have a similar 'median' of getting one hit and the added Str6 can be useful. I don't run them over SL/SC or Twin-BL...but they aren't that bad at all depending on the rest of your list.

Do not underestimate the "dire avenger dance" at 18". I had a couple of foot ASM squad just cut to pieces by those guys after they were demeched.

I can't comment too much on the other stuff.

well the problem is this is a 1495 point list for a 1500 point game. I like the idea of jetbikes and monster hunter, but what do I drop to take those?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Avatar needs Monster Hunter so he can stand up to other MCs.

Seer council needs jet bikes, Farseer fits better than Spirit.

DAs are poor no need for them, they don't work well with Serpents. Yet your guardians who need the Serpents due to 5+ save and 12" range are walking thus frankly beggars belief. Guardians do not distract fire from Avatar.

SL and BL on the Wraithlords is a bad combo. They have different targets. Go double BL or get a weapon that compliments the SL.

I do not agree with this. DA 5 man are the best and cheapest way to get troop and Wave Serpent. I do think on the ground a 20 man Guardian blob squad with warlock with Singing spear and Eldrad with the avatar would be good. When I can afford it always use spears as they can be thrown and do not count as 2 handed weapon anymore!
What is the point value you are going for?
If you are playing Ulthwe, why aren't you taking Eldrad, he is such a badass and he has fleet now and a force weapon and has a chance with every power of getting a warp charge back - If I ever run a foot farseer I run him (unless on rare occasion I want a farseer to sit back and snipe with that Rare Sniper weapon).
I DO agree with the wraithlords with the SL and BL , it is nice to have the BL twinlinked, but with s6 and 8 I would go with double BL or SL and Starcannon
I also agree that if running farseers to be fast put them on a bike with windrider jetbikes or seer council - though I think now to have a scoring unit I think windriders with farseers are better combo esp with Shard of Anuris making them fearless..
... Cheers and good luck

Well I agree with the bike council (I even ordered 2 farseers and 8 warlocks from Chapter House Studios and intend on making a jetcouncil) but the issue I'm running into here is the following:

It's just a 1500 points list. What should I be dropping to get these things? Give me a moment to come up with a different list and I'll see if its an improvement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warlock x3
Eldrad
Avatar with Fast Shot and Monster Hunter
DA x5 with TL SL + SC Serpent (Holo-fields)
10x Guardians with SC
10x Guardians with SC & TL SL + SC Serpent (Holo-fields)
2x Wraithlord with 2x Flamers & 2x Bright Lances

1410/1500 points.

Drop the DAs moving their Serpent to the other Guardians.

Thats 4 jet bikes. Drop the chin cannons on the Serpents that's another 2.

Drop the weapon platforms from the guardians and that's enough to up the Spiritseer to a Farseer (as the Spirit can't take a jet bike).

Though a Council doesn't really dovetail well with an Avatar Monster mash up. As it is expensive where you want your points in MCs.

I agree if you want an avatar list I would go with eldrad and a 20 man guardian squad with warlock with spear if have points (they would be fearless due to closeness of avatar) and they would have conceal due to warlock. I like hit and run in the avatar as well as at the end of the enemies phase he can run out and then shoot and then assault again or continue on to something else and not get tarpitted. With an avatar list I tend to use the jetbikes for objective taking or contesting and usually just do 3 man naked squads and have them in reserve. If making a jet bike list without the avatar I would seriously consider 2 farseers on bike with 9 windrider (3shuri kannons) and warlock on bike with spear, I try to take 2-3 smaller 3-4 man squads with warlocks with spears in the chance that one gets Protect to put with the farseers. I usually take the shard of anarus on one seer and keep the witchblade as against vehicles it is better than keeping the shuri pistol and with the bike you don't need the pistol anyway. The warlord I make the other seer with spear and runes to keep him alive and out of challenges. The shard makes the sqad fearless. I think this is better than a plain seer council now as it can score - it does not hit quite as hard. I have also run with one farseer and an autarch with banshee mask and shard but greater chance of no fortune which sucks....

well I could drop the DA's and take a 3 man windrider unit in reserve for late game objectives, but the chin cannons and SC serve a purpose in the army: They're the source of str6 shots, so the wraithlords and avatar can handle the armor.


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Can the Avatar take hit & run?