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Since the Eldar codex first came out, I've been saying that they represent the hardest of hard counters for MEQ and TEQ armies. Most people just scoff at this notion and spout off all the alleged "weaknesses" of the new Eldar codex. I'm not saying Eldar are the be-all, end-all, but against MEQ armies, especially loyalist armies, they might as well be. Even my buddy, who is a pretty good Eldar player (he had a lot of success in 6th with the old book), was skeptical, especially since his first game with the new codex was a loss against my Daemons. He suggested I make two armies, an Eldar list and a Marine list. No spamming, no crazy internet lists, just a basic TAC list for each, and we would switch armies, he'd play Marines and I'd play Eldar.

So I did just that, making two lists at 1500 points. Marines had two tac squads (one in Rhino, other in razorback), sniper scouts, stormtalon, LR God Hammer, hammernators, missile devastators, and Lysander. Eldar had large guardian block, small jetbike squad, d-scythe wraithguard (w/WS), firedragons (w/WS), warpspiders, Crimson Hunter, dark reapers, farseer, and spiritseer. Again, no spamming, no crazy internet tricks, just a basic TAC list for each.

The mission (not that it really mattered) was The Relic, and the deployment set up was Vanguard. Turn one was nightfighting. Turn one saw the marines jump out to an early lead with first blood (I over extended the firedragon WS, and it got crushed by the terminators and Lysander in the LR), but they lost most of the scouts and devastators to Eldar fire.

Turn two saw the tide turn in favor of the Eldar. The crimson hunter stripped 2 hull points and destroyed the heavy bolter on the LR, the firedragons rolled horribly and stripped another hull point before getting pulverized by the hammernators. Warpspiders destroyed the razorback, and the darkreapers finished off the devastators, and the scouts were finished off by the wraithguard WS. The guardians advanced toward the relic and the jetbikes moved up the flank. The marines managed to kill half of the dark reapers and 4 guardians along with the firedragons.

Turn three saw the Crimson Hunter shoot down the Stormtalon, a couple of terminators bought it from starcannon fire from the guardians, the razorback marines were wiped by combined fire from the jetbikes and warpspiders. Finally, a full squad of tac marines were cut down easily by 5 wraithguard with their d-scythes. It was laughable. The remaining 3 terminators and Lysander piled back into the LR, and it rumbled forward and killed the last WS, leaving the wraithguard without a ride (not that they needed it, they were very close to the LR).

Turn four ended it. The Crimson Hunter blew up the LR, leaving 3 termies and Lysander as sitting ducks in front of 5 wraithguard and 16 guardians, who promptly wiped them out after capturing the relic. The remaining rhino was also wrecked by the warpspiders and jetbikes. Complete and total domination by the Eldar.

After the game, my buddy conceded the point, there really isn't much use in taking SM against Eldar. Even he was taken aback by how fast Warpspiders were, how durable WS were, and how abusive Battle Focus and Bladestorm can be. I pointed out that his one big mistake was not using the Stormtalon to shoot down the Crimson Hunter. While I don't think it would have had any impact on the end result, it would have kept the termies around a turn longer (as I would have had to use the d-scythes to try and get the last hull point off of the LR) and the Stormtalon could have caused a bit of havoc. Also, I had rolled Foreboding as one of the farseer's powers, and so there was no way he was charging the relic carrying guardian unit. Of course, I completely overextended the firedragons, and they paid the price for it.

So, the point of this big ol' wall of text is this; what, if any, C:SM tactics and selections would you recommend against the new Eldar? Have you had or seen another MEQ have any success against Eldar?

I thought about drop-podding Sternguard, but while they might have caused some damage to the guardians or killed the wraithguard's WS, they would have been wiped out the next turn, and that's a pretty hefty chunk of the army that didn't come close to earning its points back. I think the LR w/hammernators was a good call, as they took a crap ton of punishment, and actually earned their points back, although Lysander might not have been a great choice. Maybe a basic chapter master for the orbital strike? Relying on rhino chassis tanks is hard to do with Warpspiders about, as that was one of the main reasons I chose not to take a whirlwind or predator. Tactical marines and scouts are beyond useless against Eldar, too slow, lack any type of significant punch, and their armor might as well be made of air with all the AP2 and pseudo-rending flying around.

First off, both of those "lists" seem like a jumble of random units. It is hard to have tons of synergy that way.

Secondly, MEQ in general struggle this edition. To have a fighting chance, they really, really need allies (read: IG). There are harder counters to pure MEQ than Eldar. For instance, I'd be more concerned about Drakes, and flying circuses.

Well crafted Eldar lists will pose a challenge, as many armies are ill-equipped to take on Wave Serpents. However, once out of their vehicles, Eldar are mainly toughness 3 with 3+-5+ saves. High rate of fire strength seven plus some good anti-infantry is key.

 JGrand wrote:
First off, both of those "lists" seem like a jumble of random units. It is hard to have tons of synergy that way.

Secondly, MEQ in general struggle this edition. To have a fighting chance, they really, really need allies (read: IG). There are harder counters to pure MEQ than Eldar. For instance, I'd be more concerned about Drakes, and flying circuses.

Well crafted Eldar lists will pose a challenge, as many armies are ill-equipped to take on Wave Serpents. However, once out of their vehicles, Eldar are mainly toughness 3 with 3+-5+ saves. High rate of fire strength seven plus some good anti-infantry is key.

They weren't tourney lists at all, but then, they weren't supposed to be. As for synergy, its funny that you say that because the Eldar list worked flawlessly (with the exception of my mistake of pushing the firedragons out too far). The Warpspiders and Jetbikes were supposed to be supporting the Firedragons, but I made a mistake by overextending in the first turn. The guardians were an advancing wall of objective taking, with the wraithguard being used as support. The Dark Reapers were backfield support to tear up marines at range, and the Crimson Hunter was there for anti-armour and air-superiority.

As for the Marines' synergy, there's only so much one can do with the current codex. The original thought in making the list was to push hard the first turn with the LR and run the lighter Rhino and Razorback behind it, with Scouts and Devastators running backfield support, hopefully thinning out or pinning any guardian squads or possibly taking out a WS. It was very much a 2nd turn strike army, as the termies could have charged a unit, and the tacticals, along with the Stormtalon, could dakka up a unit or two. Marines won't generally survive a long range shoot out with Eldar, so they had to close the distance (and I don't own multiple drop pods...yet).

As for allies, we only played 1500 points, which with Marines doesn't really leave much room for any allies of worth.

So I did just that, making two lists at 1500 points. Marines had two tac squads (one in Rhino, other in razorback), sniper scouts, stormtalon, LR God Hammer, hammernators, missile devastators, and Lysander.

As for allies, we only played 1500 points, which with Marines doesn't really leave much room for any allies of worth.

So, you are telling me you cannot afford allies, but you can afford Terminators (at least 200 points), a Land Raider (250+), and Lysander (200). Over 40% of your points are tied up in 6 models and a vehicle (albeit a durable one). For under 500 points, you can easily grab 45 Guardsmen, a HQ, and a Vendetta, but I digress.

As for the Marines' synergy, there's only so much one can do with the current codex.

While aging, the current C:SM has some tricks left. Consider Thunderfire cannons, Vulcan (if tooled toward him), Pedro (if tooled toward him), Sternguard, and Stormtalons. As much as it is overdone, MEQ really need IG.

One other thing, the point of our little experiment wasn't to prove that spam lists were a hard counter to anything, it was to show that the Eldar codex as a whole was a MEQ hard counter, which is another reason for the "little bit of this, little bit of that" Eldar build.

Drake Spam or Flying circus is a hard counter to a lot of things, sure, but its also not an even sampling of what the respective armies can do. Flying Circus is just FMC spam, and of course, Drake Spam speaks for itself. Its not something you'd generally take to a non-tournament, friendly game.

One other thing, the point of our little experiment wasn't to prove that spam lists were a hard counter to anything, it was to show that the Eldar codex as a whole was a MEQ hard counter, which is another reason for the "little bit of this, little bit of that" Eldar build.

Drake Spam or Flying circus is a hard counter to a lot of things, sure, but its also not an even sampling of what the respective armies can do. Flying Circus is just FMC spam, and of course, Drake Spam speaks for itself. Its not something you'd generally take to a non-tournament, friendly game.

I guess my question is: does this experiment prove what you are saying?

You both took some random units, attempting to avoid "spam." The Eldar list beat the Marine list. That doesn't really mean anything.

I can think of some tough Marine lists that would really scare a heavy foot-based Eldar list, such as the one you faced. I can think of some Eldar builds that would scare the more common SM/IG builds as well. Talking pure MEQ from a competitive sense is pretty tough to do.

The eldar dex is a extremely well balanced (internally) dex with few duds (which were not taken). The SM dex is 50% poorly thought out confused garbage which you took a fairly significant number of.

From what I have seen I will give you the advice I can.

TFC should be almost your entire HS. The barrage ignore cover is great against eldar and it is tough to kill behind an aegis.
ADL is your best friend, take one and take a quaddgun. Notice that none of the eldar AP3- weapons ignore cover except for wraithscythes.
Stormtallons are actually very decent against eldar.
Drop pod stern guard can really kill an eldar list. Drop 3 squads of 10 behind the WS and fire 5 melta and that is a dead WS. Use the special ammo /plasma /flamers on the contents depending on what it is.
Did I mention you need drop pods? Land a tac squad next to a reaper squad combat squad and you should be able to kill them either this turn or next.
Terminators are a bigger bark than bite against eldar as they usually get shredded after killing a single target. Make sure that kill counts and is not just a transport (though killing the transport and dragons could be worth it if you had another LR)

Hopefully some of this helps.

Eldar have always been a good counter to marines. Eldar are an elite army, so are marines. Eldar usually have problems dealing with too much fire or just too much on the board to kill. With marines, eldar are equal and sometimes greater in number than the marines, and our weapons love.to shoot marines. Serpents beat rhino chassis every day of the week, melta, lance and haywire make quick work of land raiders. Now with rending everywhere power armor is not very scary. I5 means we go first in assault against most everything, even if the marines roflstomp the eldar the eldar get some stikes in. Makes us slightly harder to sweep too.Dark reapers are designed as marine killers, and a top priority threat for power armored armies. Scythe wraithguard will also reliably ruin christmas if you don't stop them.

Mech eldar is tough, but once you crack the armor the insides are usually squishy and will drop to bolter fire. Scouts are worthless and easy picking, but TAC marines are your only other troop and actually pretty good. Missile launchers are good for skimmers, the jink save is just something you have to deal with. If you assault a skimmer, krak grenades will have it dead to rights. And yes, rhinos will go down easy, but better the rhino then the dudes inside being shot to pieces. Also, now that serpents work differently melta is actually reliable enough to kill them.

Tactical terminators are laughable with all the rending we have, but THSS terminators will solidly destroy anything they touch and take a beating. I would avoid them though, you don't need that much punch and the armor is not all that good.

Wraithguard shrug bolter fire, but die very easily to plasma. It is harder for them to get a cover save now than it used to be. Basically get them on foot and stay away, or go in for the kill.

Raiders are hit or miss. Protect them from lances, fire dragons and wraithguard and they are golden. Fail to do so, waste of points. Godhammers or crusaders are both good.

Now that eldar don't have hackingly awesome psychic defense, a libby is a safe and reliable way to boost your army power. A good HQ choice.

Sternguard in drop pods are very very dangerous. Consider running a squad with lysander to abuse bolter drill and have him sit out front and eat fire.

Eldar hate flame and template weapons, so flamers are a good call anywhere you can put them.

Thunderfire cannons are also pretty good for the cost.

Bikes are fast and capable of catching serpents/assaulting them to kill them, or pick off problem units.

Agreed though that SM without allies are a bit weak.

 JGrand wrote:

So I did just that, making two lists at 1500 points. Marines had two tac squads (one in Rhino, other in razorback), sniper scouts, stormtalon, LR God Hammer, hammernators, missile devastators, and Lysander.

As for allies, we only played 1500 points, which with Marines doesn't really leave much room for any allies of worth.

So, you are telling me you cannot afford allies, but you can afford Terminators (at least 200 points), a Land Raider (250+), and Lysander (200). Over 40% of your points are tied up in 6 models and a vehicle (albeit a durable one). For under 500 points, you can easily grab 45 Guardsmen, a HQ, and a Vendetta, but I digress.

As for the Marines' synergy, there's only so much one can do with the current codex.

While aging, the current C:SM has some tricks left. Consider Thunderfire cannons, Vulcan (if tooled toward him), Pedro (if tooled toward him), Sternguard, and Stormtalons. As much as it is overdone, MEQ really need IG.

So why even bother taking Marines in the first place, if all you are going to field are a few basic marines? Doesn't that kind of just prove the point? Its kind of sad that MEQ are forced to take a third of their army in IG allies just to have a chance, even in small battles.

I had considered Thunderfire Cannons, but unfortunately I don't actually own any at the moment (and they are grossly overpriced thanks to Finecast), but I think they could have done some good at least at breaking apart the guardians, but probably not so much against the rest of the army. Sternguard are one of my favorite units, but I just don't see them doing much outside of the initial Alpha Strike unless I spam them, and a single 335 point suicide squad just seems counterproductive (especially if you are going 2nd). I'd like to try out a Stormraven in lieu of the LR (anybody got any experience with the raven against new Eldar?).

Feeling you have to take allies sucks, but I recommend trying out the suggested C:SM units.

A Thunderfire Cannon or 2, a librarian and an extra Storm Talon would certainly help. Drop podding marines would help kill off devastators and Wave Serpent rear armour.

Eldar have trouble with AV12 flyers. Eldar either need to take the expensive and very fragile flyer (you can take this out relatively easy), or they use mass s6/7 fire and twin-link it with a Farseer, or take very expensive s7 missiles on Dark Reapers. None of these options are great vs AV12.

Well. In my games, they just kind of ignored my Stormraven and shredded everything else with scatter laser/bright lance/star cannon fire.

The Eldar aren't a *hard* counter to marines like the helldrake. They just force saves. A lot of saves. So many saves that even FNP marines can't stand up to it.

Eldar can field so many configurations, I haven't changed my TAC lists at all since they dropped. There doesn't seem to be any point. Eldar just kind of happen, and I use what my list has that day to the best of my ability. Haven't beat them yet, though, so maybe that's not very helpful :(

 Dr. Serling wrote:
Now that eldar don't have hackingly awesome psychic defense, a libby is a safe and reliable way to boost your army power. A good HQ choice.

What powers would you recommend, book or Codex? Gate and Force Dome seem to be the only useful Codex powers against Eldar. although combining Gate with the Avenger power might yield some results.

At their current price, Librarians are limited since they can only cast one power per turn without the 50 point Epistolary upgrade. A 150 point (without any other upgrades) 2 wound HQ without an invulnerable save just seems iffy to me. Hopefully the new book will fix the pricing issues with C:SM and put them more in line with DAs.

I also hate to be a downer, but if the DA codex is a sign of things to come, I'm not sure what the 6th edition C:SM is going t o have in it that will help the problem.

Martel732 wrote:
Well. In my games, they just kind of ignored my Stormraven and shredded everything else with scatter laser/bright lance/star cannon fire.

The Eldar aren't a *hard* counter to marines like the helldrake. They just force saves. A lot of saves. So many saves that even FNP marines can't stand up to it.

Eldar can field so many configurations, I haven't changed my TAC lists at all since they dropped. There doesn't seem to be any point. Eldar just kind of happen, and I use what my list has that day to the best of my ability. Haven't beat them yet, though, so maybe that's not very helpful :(

If it was just forcing saves, then I wouldn't consider them a counter, as they did this with the previous book. The new book amped their low AP volume up substantially. The new book has 26 ranged weapons capable of AP3 or better. Basic guardians, Dire Avengers, and Jetbikes all have pseudo-rending, and star cannons are much cheaper. Guardians (and guardian piloted vehicles) are substantially better because of the increase to their BS. More hits equals more bladestorm potential. AP2 flamer templates on Wraithguard are awful to deal with, especially given how reliable the WS is at delivering them. And don't forget the wonderfully abusive suncannon on the WK that can be twinlinked. An expensive option, but very capable.

I think we had Bladestorm and monofilament come into effect about 6-7 times...not impressive at first until you realize the guardians never fired a shot with their shuricats. Those 6-7 times came from two rounds of shooting from 5 warpspiders and one round from 5 jetbikes.



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Martel732 wrote:
I also hate to be a downer, but if the DA codex is a sign of things to come, I'm not sure what the 6th edition C:SM is going t o have in it that will help the problem.

Oh trust me, I've thought about that. Its not looking too good, since just making marines a point or two cheaper doesn't really help.

Maybe it's worse than I thought. But in my games, it was mostly just weight of fire that brought me to my knees. Granted, the BA are gonna get 5+ FNP against most of that stuff, but that's not really going to change our fortunes that much.

I haven't ran into the AP 2 flamers yet. That seems.... excessive. But whatever.

I think I'm going to have to invest heavily in drop pods. Maybe the tac squads will get some use before they die that way. Space Wolves have the clear advantage in the tac drop pod tactic since they can take two flamers or two melta, whichever is needed.

And don't forget Space Wolves don't give a feth if they get assaulted. That's such a huge advantage now. I mean, it always was, but it's even better now.

C:SM needs updating, and that update i hate to say it will probably suck

 Blackskull wrote:
C:SM needs updating, and that update i hate to say it will probably suck

I agree, but I'm still hopeful for a few things (that probably won't happen). Some extra artillery options would be nice (instead of just the TFC, but on the same chassis). Chapter traits would be nice too if done correctly (ie, all of them equally useful). I figure at best we'll get the 5th edition codex with prices more in line with the DA codex, and maybe some big, random, expensive, uber unit like the last two codex releases. You can guarantee we'll get at least a couple of new units (gotta generate sales somehow).

I had a certain amount of luck against most of the Eldar lists I faced (would that include some Eldar allies to DA?) but then again I play RW.

It seems that you can out range them with most of the things, and a few lucky dice rolls can glance wave serpents to death. I found whirlwinds to be super effective, and quickness may help against them...