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So I'm curious about this because I don't personally care much but a lot of people do.

Say I used a dreadknight to represent a riptide why do some have an issue?
Yes it's a bit smaller but by that account you lose LOS and range.
Surely whatever model is used to proxy doesn't matter because everything counts for that model.

It's to make them comparable for LoS

If you use a smaller model as proxy, it's easier to get cover and things like this. Sure in the case of Riptide and Dreadknight it's not that worse as they are big enough to be seen most of the time anyway but look at it that way: Would you allow a Grot as a proxy for a boy or even a Nob?

Here's a scenario where I think LoS footprint matters:

Player 1 uses an actual Rhino model for his troop transport, and Player 2 uses a significantly smaller proxy (say, a pack of ten Kleenex tissues) to represent a Rhino. Player 1's Rhino is visible when moving behind inch-high terrain and, as such, can be shot at by Player 2's lascannon. Player 2's Handy Andies are not visible when moving behind an identical piece of terrain and, as such, cannot be targeted by Player 1's lascannon.

The fact that Player 2's troop transport can't fire its Stormbolter over the terrain is not, to my mind, a fair exchange when one considers he can get his troops to a scoring objective utterly unmolested.

But, aside from such extreme cases, where proxies are used as a form of MFA, I don't tend to care about LoS footprint on proxy models. So long as it's 'roughly' the same size, it's all good.

As said above it's for LoS and cover,

sadly if folk were not concerned there are a significant minority of players who would be running grots as riptides (to use an even more ludicrous example)

In systems where cover/line of sight is determined by the base rather than the figure on the base it's not such an issue

There's also probably a degree of 'I've spent X on this big model, how dare you use something cheaper'

Finally in pickup games with strangers the brain is programed to see larger stuff as a bigger threat (not always wise) so incorrect sized proxies make it trickier to assess the table at a glance

But for friendly games with mates it's all going to matter far less

I remember one time I was at a friend's house when we decided to play 40k. I didn't have my army, so I proxied an entire tau army as being fantasy goblins with rippers for suits.

I have to say that it was a 4 way free for all and nobody ever shot at me, so maybe the "bigger target = bigger threat" impulse is accurate after all.

My friend built his own riptide. It has a significantly lower (although slightly wider) footprint. It is probably close to half the height of a riptide. It was never even mentioned by anyone in our group. We know he didn't make it this way for a gaming advantage but because it was how he envisioned a cool unit in his mind and as such everyone accepted it without a frown.

If I had known him to be gaming the rules and consistently modelling his units to have a lower profile in order to win, I probably would have minded.

He also has a firewarrior spotter of some type (I don't know the Tau codex as well as I should) that he has modded to lie down on its belly with binoculars in his hands. He even cut up a pulse carbine to make some sort of pulse pistol that apparently has no model for this guy. Last game he was behind an aegis, but he was the first to say "oh, him. Yeah, no you can see him just like the others, of course."

Boniface wrote:
So I'm curious about this because I don't personally care much but a lot of people do.

Say I used a dreadknight to represent a riptide why do some have an issue?

I was actually considering this idea actually, not from a "tactical advantage" point of view but a cool twist for my "Tau Allies" to fit the image of my Elysian Drop Troops. To many times people think the worst and assume that they are doing it to take advantage when in fact its being done for creativity and to fit the look of the army.

Ok so flip the scale.
Say I hate all of games workshops models the way they are but like the game, fluff and concept. I decide space marines are just too small so I build an entire army with models nearly twice the size. Would people have an issue with this?
I mean it's increasing visibility making it harder to claim cover but it increases various ranges and areas of effect.

Btw I'm not planning on doing any of this I'm just curious.

If you want to make super-size Space Marines with two-inch bases, I probably wouldn't mind overmuch - given the base-to-base contact rules for Assault, you'd probably be hamstringing yourself in certain situations, though.

Boniface wrote:
Ok so flip the scale.
Say I hate all of games workshops models the way they are but like the game, fluff and concept. I decide space marines are just too small so I build an entire army with models nearly twice the size. Would people have an issue with this?
I mean it's increasing visibility making it harder to claim cover but it increases various ranges and areas of effect.

Btw I'm not planning on doing any of this I'm just curious.

It would really ruin the easthetics of the table-top if you ran models twice the size of marines.

 Purifier wrote:
It would really ruin the easthetics of the table-top if you ran models twice the size of marines.

I considered pointing that out, but my painting ruins the aesthetics of any table-top I play on, so it's less of a worry

I guess there would be other difficulties it would create. Obviously the super-size Marines would still need to fit in the standard deployment zone, which could limit the OP's options for initial unit placement. And they'd still follow the same rules for movement and such, which could make it difficult to manoeuvre the OPs infantry through cities or stand them on building parapets. Not to mention the issues with terrain tests. But as I say, most of these issues hamstring the proxy player, rather than his opponent.

What about using the FW Greater Daemons as normal Greater Daemons?

If someone was to bring one of those magnificent monsters to the table, i'd be cool with it, even if it DID affect the game.

Those things are beautiful

 Ascalam wrote:
If someone was to bring one of those magnificent monsters to the table, i'd be cool with it, even if it DID affect the game.

Those things are beautiful

Amen to that.

wouldnt those technically hurt the player since now its easier to see?
Thats why i dont care if its bigger than its suppose to be, it screws you over more than it helps. Just dont be calling any of this "actual model" bullcrap...its not a tournament because if it was that model wouldnt be here to begin with.

Minute differences in size, dont care. If say a Land Raider was proxied with something about half as tall, i'd have issues with that since now its an av14 box that hides behind an ADL almost perfectly...which gives the +1 cover "obstructed aiming" or whatever they call it for when you can BARELY see the vehicle facing towards you.

Boniface wrote:
Ok so flip the scale.
Say I hate all of games workshops models the way they are but like the game, fluff and concept. I decide space marines are just too small so I build an entire army with models nearly twice the size. Would people have an issue with this?
I mean it's increasing visibility making it harder to claim cover but it increases various ranges and areas of effect.

Btw I'm not planning on doing any of this I'm just curious.

That's like playing a game where one guy has 15mm models and the other guy has 28mm models. Yeah, as long as you both have the same size bases and ranges are the same, it can work...but it's really not recommended.

I use a Balrog as a Grater Daemon. No complaints yet.

I suppose it all depends on who you are playing and in what setting. A lot of people at my FLGS are really relaxed and cool people and don't mind in the slightest if things are a tad different. We all mainly just play the game just to have the relaxed atmosphere and talk amongst each other. (We don't have a WAAC guy at our place)

We've actually played a couple games where Dreadknights have been taken as Riptides and to be perfectly honest it's really not bad at all. That being said, no-one has ever rocked up with a Rhino and said "Oh this is a LRC" or "This is a LSS". I think the unwritten rule is if it's in theme with the model and reasonably close in size then no problems at all.

Basically because of True Line of Sight.

Different sized models will interact with TLoS differently. Most people want to be consistent.

As someone who does a lot of proxying/converting I think having something of similar shape and size is very important. From your opponents perspective every fight is a learning opportunity and you want to learn how to fight a particular unit from the codex in the same form you may face it in the future. If every time you face a riptide it changes height by 6inches then it becomes hard to develop a method for countering it via terrain or maneuvering out of LOS.

It's not so much the size for me as WYSIWYG.

When I look across the table, I want to easily identify the unit I'm looking at, it's weapons, and so on.

I've had games where friends were trying out new units via proxy, and after turn 3 I got tired of asking what was what.

Is it just a different but completely recognisable unit with similar dimensions and recgnisably close weapon loadout?

Okay, don't care.

Is it wildly different in size, unrecognisable as the thing its meant to be (a termagant in an army of many termagants proxying for a hormagaunt) or with a loadout that looks wrong, and not the only proxy in your army?

I care, stahp.

If your entire army is cool models, with easily recognisable gear, and none of them are GW's, and all slightly different sizes, they're cool, rock on.

Most of what you guys are talking about is "counts as", not really proxying btw.