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Anyone else looked at the update for the Krieg Siege list yet?

Thoughts?

The first thing that struck me was the fact that Engineers with Breaching Drills are Elites, not Troops... Sad day for my Death kOrks.

But I do like the ability to take them as allies and have 4 Heavy Mortars to go with my Leman Russ or Avenger still. Just not sure how I want to fill the troop section.

The first thing that struck me was the fact that Engineers with Breaching Drills are Elites, not Troops... Sad day for my Death kOrks.

Yeah. Probably too many complaints form pesky guard effectively "deep striking" onto objectives with troops. When most other armies have that ability

No combined squad on infantry platoon either, and they have lost their die hards rule. I loved tar pitting units with infantry.

It just seems like the assault brigade list out of IA 12 witha few slot changes.

Cyclops's might be worth a go now, for the lolz.

Link?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/dkksiegelist.pdf

I look the two list and I don't who's the best : siege or assault brigade?

All I can say is, ouch.

They even removed the Trojan entirely from the list. Did they get tired of selling that model?

The lack of combined squads is devastating as they now have no way to get HWT that will not be wiped 1st turn. As well as loosing an integral tactical tool the IG have. Blobbs are a big advantage sometimes.

CCS starting at 100 pts? What exactly makes them worth 50 pts more than a IG CCS?

The only semi positive change I see is the hydra flack platforms with interceptor and skyfire.

The funny part of all this is that with these changes the IG codex + FW units is actually a better artillery static siege list than the siege list. I really have no idea why you would want to use this list anymore as it is the IG dex + FW units with higher prices on almost all of the units? I see nothing unique in this list that cannot be done with the IA12 or IG lists.

The funny part of all this is that with these changes the IG codex + FW units is actually a better artillery static siege list than the siege list. I really have no idea why you would want to use this list anymore as it is the IG dex + FW units with higher prices on almost all of the units? I see nothing unique in this list that cannot be done with the IA12 or IG lists.

Agreed.

I loved the Siege list. The death Korps rule now does suit the fluff, advancing forward under fire not caring about casualties. Mine did that anyways with ld 8 sgts and regimental standard. I didn't have a problem with that.

But the fluff means Bayonet charges, I got these little suckers into close combat as much as i could, I will be reluctant now because they have lost the die hards rule. FW could have at least given them stubborn for those points increases.

I guess I will go to a assault brigade list, maybe with an allied siege list for the earth shaker, 5 man grenadier squads and cyclops. At least the siege list has the assault 2 order that gives them crusader.

This update does make me want to get on a plane, fly to England and twist someones head off at forgeworld.

yea, this list kinda sucks :/ ruined some plans for allies.


hmmmm..... can regular IG get heavy mortors and thudd guns?

Yep, exact same slot too.

I am hoping they just messed up and this will get updated...heck sell me IA5ed2 with a decent list and I will shell out for it again.

IA12 assault list is excellent for the bayonet charge. Use forlorn hope and you will feel like a real heartless commander of numbers.

The siege list had 2 things going for it. It was a good static gunline/artillery line and it was the drill objective capturing list. With the nerfs to the drills there was absolutely no need to turn engineers into elites and the nerfs+price increases to the rest of the list is just crazy. I am really confused why they made the decisions they did, all I can think is they want us to buy IA12 and are thinking of re-releasing IA5 (I almost hope now).

So they are same points/slot? sweet!

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Thoughts?

Pretty much as expected. It's a good gunline ("fearless" against shooting casualties is extremely powerful when you're camped on objectives right at the edge of the table), but completely a static army. To use it successfully in standard missions you'll probably need to add some allies that can capture objectives outside your own deployment zone.

 ansacs wrote:
The siege list had 2 things going for it. It was a good static gunline/artillery line and it was the drill objective capturing list. With the nerfs to the drills there was absolutely no need to turn engineers into elites and the nerfs+price increases to the rest of the list is just crazy. I am really confused why they made the decisions they did, all I can think is they want us to buy IA12 and are thinking of re-releasing IA5 (I almost hope now).

The drill nerf isn't too surprising, after the "fine, we'll make it suck, stop complaining about it" overnerfing in IA1 (including moving the squad to elites). FW obviously don't want you to have scoring drill squads anymore, and IMO the only reason no-drill engineers are troops is because otherwise the IA5 list only has a single troops choice.

The increase in point cost is just a lazy copy/paste problem in a document that is nothing but a lazy copy/paste job. My guess is they just copied the IA12 entry as the most recent DKoK list without stopping to realize that the reason the infantry squads are so expensive is that you can respawn them in the IA12 list. It's stupid of course, but calling it a decision implies that a lot more thought went into making the "update".

Ah Peregrine, the sad part of it is you are probably entirely right.

This really does seem (and even looks) like an extremely sloppy copy paste job. I really wish they would have just left it undone as the old list was so much better.

Well luckily my drills still look great.

I am thinking the only way to make this list work now is to take mole launcher engineers and maximize the earthshakers and heavy mortars to blast the opponent off the board. You really do need allies for this list now, there is almost no getting around it.

 ansacs wrote:
This really does seem (and even looks) like an extremely sloppy copy paste job.

It even has the typos in the flyer section where the Thunderbolt is 2 HP and the Avenger is 3 HP. Which really makes a joke out of their "we're working hard on it, it will be released soon" claims, since the whole thing was clearly done in about 15 minutes with no editing or playtesting.

Do you think this was squeezed out due to reduced sales in the seige carriages?

I would of liked to see some warlord traits specific to these guys as a must (if even for character) and as the comissaar got a HQ position i feel the assault brigade lost out there.

Regardless, some of us wanted/needed this update as soon as possible so we could bring back the only advantage DKOK seem to have - covering the gaming board in plastic templates!

Actually I kind of think they were tired of selling models for this list. I mean they even cut the Trojan completely out of the list.

You had no need for this update then. You could have fielded the arty carriage list with the old one better than you can now. (you got free Trojans and cheaper troops) The only people who needed an update were the drill users as it was not 100% clear how the new drill fit into this list.

Holy crap, sooo glad I sold my DKoK army a couple months ago. They didnt even use lube on this one. My list relied on blobbing heavy weapon squads with infantry squads and using drills with engineer squads as massive distraction/momentum stealers.

If enough players cause an uproar about this update do you think we can get it amended?

FW could even combine the 2 lists into a krieg codex if they want, add a few special characters, some more units.

Give bonus to some HQ characters like space marines do.
One that allows grenadiers as troop choices, one that allows Death riders as troop choices.

Just something to redefine the 2 lists different playing styles again.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
If enough players cause an uproar about this update do you think we can get it amended?

I doubt it. It was obviously a zero-effort "update" that was done just to get people to stop asking for it, they aren't going to spend more than 15 minutes on it until they can sell it to you in a new book. If they cared enough to listen to player complaints they wouldn't have done it this way in the first place.

This update is largely copy-paste from the IA12 Assault Brigade list. As noted, not a lot of effort. FW's Facebook page has noted multiple errors, the Hydra Platforms are not supposed to have Interceptor, Infantry Squads in platoons should not have access to Platoon Standards, etc.

To be fair, the DKoK list didn't have blobs for the first 3 years of its existence, they weren't an integral part of their nature, they just worked really really well when introduced Shame they're gone, but I'm not worried about it at least from a thematic standpoint.

I might try switching to a assault brigade list with Venner and 2 or 3 infantry platoons.

Then ally with the siege list for artillery support from earthshakers.

But to be honest there is no big difference between the two lists now

Yeah, the differences are pretty minimal at this point, one has chimeras and tracked artillery, the other has carriage artillery and swaps Engineers and Grenadiers FoC places.

Being that you can get an allied siege list for 70 or 75 points for a commissar/quartermaster then 50 points for 5 engineers, so 120 -125 points minimum to allow access to artillery carriages.
its not too bad.

I was searching for some tips to refine my game a bit with my death korps and was somewhat surprised to see how much hate the siege list is getting. Some of it I can certainly understand, but the list is definitely fun to play and has some real bite.

My biggest complaints include the cost hikes to the core units; the CCS and the Infantry Platoons. I can get around not having combined squads, to some degree, but a simple points reduction on these units would really put the army in a good place.

That being said, I have had an enormous amount of fun and many wins capitalizing on what this army does well. The heart of my army always includes a CCS behind an ADL with Quad Gun, shoulder-to-shoulder with two batteries of two Earthshaker Cannons. It doesn't always pop, but when you are throwing down 2-4 Earthshaker pie plates that ignore cover, you will weep for joy.

I use one maxed out Platoon to move on objectives, and two reserved squads of Engineers with Demo Charges and Heavy Flamers in Centaurs to try to grab objectives further out, or lend support where needed. These are definitely the weakest components of the army, but if you let your artillery do the heavy lifting, you can make good use of the infantry's pseudo-fearless to shooting to camp objectives. I've also surprised many enemies who forget what krak grenades can do to vehicles that get too close.

One of my favorite units in this army is actually the Rapiers. Having a BS4 Gunner on an TL Ordnance Lascannon is just lovely. I use six which gives me 5-6 S:9 hits that roll two dice and pick the highest for armor penetration, and get +1 to rolls on the damage table. Let me tell you how incredible this is my friends; absolutely glorious.

Some other things that work well for me is 1-2 small squads of deathriders to protect the artillery and a medusa carriage for some ranged S10 AP2 fun.

Apart from the obvious artillery builds look at the MSU builds with grenadiers and engineers in centaurs.

Fast vehicles that can be assaulted out of with decent BS, good weapon choices and gas grenades. They can pop tanks pretty easily with MB's - they are soft shelled but a death rider screen works well AND no artillery!

its not playing its true strengths but offers a whole lot of fun builds to play with

Now that is some thread necromancy.

Honestly there is one mistake I made in this thread. Troops engineers can follow up the drills so you can drop forward scoring using them.

The only parts of your siege list that are unique to the siege army list are the parts you yourself disparage as being the least useful. The artillery carriages, platoons, and rapiers can all be taken in a regular IG army and with far superior and cheaper support.

The only builds I have found that are unique to the siege list is drills followed by engineer troops and the max artillery with 3 units of heavy arty carriages and 3 field artillery units. Every other type of list is done better, cheaper, and usually with better options by other army lists.

The saddest part of this list actually comes when you look at it side by side with the assault list. The unit entries are the same but many of the options and special rules have been stripped from the siege list.

All fair points. Don't most of these items fall under Heavy Support in a normal IG List? If not, I feel a bit foolish. In all honesty though, I feel like the downsides to the siege list aren't terrible. I'm okay with paying 2 extra points to give a guardsman pseudo-fearless to shooting and krak grenades. The fact that I could get two CCS in a normal IG list for the price of one Krieg CCS would go a long way to convince me to change over, though.

I think having the pseudo-fearless on the artillery is a huge boon, too mind you. I can throw a couple of meat shields up front and not have to worry about the rest of the crew fleeing. I just haven't felt like my lists have been gimped, but I do not play tournaments either, so I may just be fortunate in my match-ups.

Yeah the pseudo fearless is nice in the assault list. However in the siege list the CCS is about the save cost as a lord commissar + CCS in the regular IG list. This means that static artillery has Ld 10 stubborn and gets orders on Ld10. It is really tough giving that up for no morale checks due to shooting (especially considering the cheaper chaff from IG and the sabre platforms).

The field artillery got moved to heavy so that was why I listed the heavy carriages + field artillery as being unique. Though to be honest when you field those numbers you are already approaching 2000 pts double FOC and the expanded allies chart for the regular IG goes a long way to make up for it.

FootlooseJarl wrote:
The fact that I could get two CCS in a normal IG list for the price of one Krieg CCS would go a long way to convince me to change over, though.

Remember, the DKoK CCS has the standard included in the unit already instead of as a separate upgrade. Granted, it's a bit less relevant when you're immune to most morale tests you actually care about, but it's still there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ansacs wrote:
Honestly there is one mistake I made in this thread. Troops engineers can follow up the drills so you can drop forward scoring using them.

Where are you seeing this? I can't find anything that says that you can attach an engineer squad to another squad's drill. I remember it used to work that way and I've been trying to find it in the new version, but I can't.

Note that when a Hades Breaching Drill is selected as a Dedicated Transport for a Death Korps Combat Engineer Squad, that unit is counted as an Elites choice and not a Troops choice. However, Engineer units selected as Troops choices may be held in reserve in order to use a Hades Breaching Drill’s Follow-up Attack special rule. Engineer squads in reserve must declare at the start of the game if they are attached to a Hades Breaching Drill (and are treated as becoming available for deployment the turn after the Hades arrives, as noted in the Follow-up Attack special rule), or if they will use the normal Reserve rules.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/dkksiegelist.pdf
From under the hades entry. I am not sure whether this was fixed later or I just didn't notice but it is fairly clear. I am just glad it is there. Not being able to deliver troops with the hades drill stinks.