Feds Asked to Avoid Def Con Hacker Meeting

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**Dreadclaw69**

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23269125

Federal agents have been asked to stay away from one of the world's biggest hacker gatherings.

Revelations about the scale of US government spying meant emotions in the hacking world were "running high", said organisers of the Def Con convention.

As a result, federal agents should take a "timeout" from Def Con this year.

The main Def Con event takes place in Las Vegas from 1 August and will see 15,000 hackers debate security topics and demonstrate their coding prowess.

Freely mix
The request was posted to the main Def Con webpage by Jeff Moss, the founder of the hacking conference.

In the past, he said, the convention had been an "open nexus" where government security staffers and law enforcement agents could freely mix and share ideas with the other hackers, researchers and security professionals that attended.

"Our community operates in the spirit of openness, verified trust, and mutual respect," he said, a state of affairs that had led to an exchange of information that had seemed mutually beneficial.

However, wrote Mr Moss, many people now questioned that free exchange of ideas in the wake of ongoing disclosures about the US National Security Agency's Prism programme, which, since 2007, has been scooping up huge amounts of data about people's online activity.

As a result, "it would be best for everyone involved if the feds call a 'timeout' and not attend Def Con this year," he wrote.

"A little bit of time and distance can be a healthy thing, especially when emotions are running high," Mr Moss told Reuters.

Despite the request, Def Con organisers were not going to be checking the identities of everyone who attended to weed out federal agents and send them packing, he added.

Paper plea
Def Con's request comes as Yahoo seeks permission to publish information about a key legal case in 2008 that let the US government establish and justify Prism.

Yahoo has filed legal papers asking for permission from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisc), which decides whether US government departments such as the National Security Agency can carry out surveillance programmes.

In 2008, Yahoo had "objected strenuously" to the Fisc over requests for it to co-operate with the early Prism programme, it said. But its objections had been over-ruled by the Fisc.

Publishing those objections and the Fisc's justification for denying them would inform public debate about whether the Fisc had been correct to give the go-ahead for Prism and subsequent surveillance projects, it said. US laws mean the legal papers from 2008 are classified.

"Courts have long recognised the public has a right to access court records," Yahoo wrote.

Any guesses how much overtime has now been approved for surveillance of the event?

**Super Ready**

The Def Con organisers have released a follow-up statement, which reads: "We feel that while the Feds and ourselves have had some good times, the time has come for us to explore new opportunities, and not be held back by each other. We need to grow in our own separate ways. It's not them - it's us."

**Dreadclaw69**

It almost sounds like a break up. Which group will be at home eating ice cream and crying themselves to sleep?

**Relapse**

Seems funny that hackers are pulling this holier than thou attitude about government snooping and hacking.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Relapse wrote:
Seems funny that hackers are pulling this holier than thou attitude about government snooping and hacking.

I hate to do this but...

>Implying being a hacker means you are doing illegal things

**Monster Rain**

It kind of seems like biting the hand, wouldn't you say?

If they are going to be less open with their activities, the feds are going to resort to other methods to acquire information.

**Dreadclaw69**

You mean like PRISM?

**ProtoClone**

Well one group mines for information and has no real power to bring anyone to justice.

The other mines for information and has the power to arrest you based on how they read this info.

To me, I see the difference.

**Monster Rain**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
You mean like PRISM?

The focus of that sort of investigation could be shifted, you know what I'm saying?

ProtoClone wrote:
Well one group mines for information and has no real power to bring anyone to justice.

I think that this is somewhat naïve.

If you think really hard about it I think you could come up with an example or two of hackers doing things that could be perceived as negative.

**Dreadclaw69**

Given how extensive it appears to have been would it actually take a lot of shifting?

**Monster Rain**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Given how extensive it appears to have been would it actually take a lot of shifting?

I think you understand the point I was making.

**Dreadclaw69**

Maybe I'm missing the point you're making (a lot of white noise in work today).

**Monster Rain**

Generally, it isn't good to piss off the feds.

Particularly when a large portion of your activity can be argued to exist in a legal gray area.

**ProtoClone**

Monster Rain wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
You mean like PRISM?

The focus of that sort of investigation could be shifted, you know what I'm saying?

ProtoClone wrote:
Well one group mines for information and has no real power to bring anyone to justice.

I think that this is somewhat naïve.

If you think really hard about it I think you could come up with an example or two of hackers doing things that could be perceived as negative.

Oh, I know there have been, and still are, hackers that only serve to destroy...but still they are only superficial compared to the kind of crap the Government can do and that is the problem.

**Dreadclaw69**

Monster Rain wrote:
Generally, it isn't good to piss off the feds.

Particularly when a large portion of your activity can be argued to exist in a legal gray area.

True. But do the Feds need the hackers more than they need to clamp down on them?

**ProtoClone**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Generally, it isn't good to piss off the feds.

Particularly when a large portion of your activity can be argued to exist in a legal gray area.

True. But do the Feds need the hackers more than they need to clamp down on them?

Yes they need the hackers. They are great at finding backdoors and holes in security; they usually get hired/contracted for such things.

**Dreadclaw69**

ProtoClone wrote:
Yes they need the hackers. They are great at finding backdoors and holes in security; they usually get hired/contracted for such things.

Thank you, that's the point I'm trying to make. Many other countries have their own groups devoted to cyber attacks, stealing military secrets, stealing intellectual property etc.

**ProtoClone**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
ProtoClone wrote:
Yes they need the hackers. They are great at finding backdoors and holes in security; they usually get hired/contracted for such things.

Thank you, that's the point I'm trying to make. Many other countries have their own groups devoted to cyber attacks, stealing military secrets, stealing intellectual property etc.

Right.

Their both, but not all, are crooked...just one is a little more honest about it.

**Dreadclaw69**

And the other is better funded

**ProtoClone**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
And the other is better funded

HA!

Exactly!

**daedalus**

Mind you, Def Con is a lot of things. People hear "hacker" and they immediately go off the deep end for the scaryscary media definition.

Think about it though, I mean, suppose you're a security researcher, penetration tester (giggity), or you do infosec for a company somewhere? Well, how do you do that kind of job without knowing a thing or two about how the adversary works?

And this 'warning' is friendly, if anything. I mean, Moss does consulting for Homeland Security, for feths sake.

It's amusing, but it's a non-issue. A disclaimer, if nothing else. You bet the feds will still be there, just less obvious than normal.

**ironicsilence**

pretty sure the feds dont need to be at the con...to be at the con. I'm sure they will be able to do all sorts of spying from a distance

**Jihadin**

We hired a hacker for our trans network relating to our brigade in Afghanistan. Basically everything in the pipeline that incoming to Afghan due to the "Surge" from normal units, to Darkside units, to about everything else coming in by cargo aircraft, convoys from Karachi, Pakistan, what's on cargo vehicle ships coming into Karachi, what was in Stateside awaiting shipment, what was coming from Iraq into Afghanistan, all military branches plus DoS equipment, and whatever Euro country was sending in on our carriers.
26 Year old Female Goth name Candi. Since we could not get her a NATO Badge for Kandahar she had to be escorted all over. We ran a 24/7 operation cell so her office was next to ours. I actually had to post guards outside our office building doors due to the friction with the Pakistanians and Indians. They never seen a Goth. AECOM/1stARCOM was the contract organization we oversaw who hire from India and Pakistan for the labor and unarmed security guards.
Candi barely slept, if she did it was eyes open, we actually made a game with her eating and mainly drinking water (summer time when we hired her), I made sure when the DFAC open in the morning the first eight guys in were mine to snag banana's and PB also white bread. She wanted to drink Monster all the time but we limited to her to four during daylight hours and six at night. I had to tell her how we lost an individual who drank mostly Monster and had a heat stroke on us on last deployment. So for every Monster was two bottles of water
So for 160K for 45 days at our FoB she worked out our system. She got to fired M4 both on burst and those of us who were issue M4 auto's she got a chance to fire those, 60mm mortar, 50cal, 240's, M249's, M19, and 9mm. Also drove a MRAP, MATV, and the new darkside uparmor buggy. She gave me 45 days of fun to. I had a memo come down to from my Higher ups making me the point man to deal with outside CoC who might go nuts on her for "Goth"...I directed so many calls to my Brigade Commander

Damn....memory lane trip....thanks for the good memories

**ironicsilence**

that story needs more pics....

**Jihadin**

I'm not adding to your spank bank...........

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Jihadin wrote:
I'm not adding to your spank bank...........

But if you sign up for an account today and make a deposit, you get a free toaster!