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My gaming group is thinking of expanding into some new games and I think we try some historicals next.

I'd like to see some skirmish or possibly company level wargames with good models and rules.

BTW I'm not interested in WW2 much.

Well the wonderful thing about historicals is that for the most part you can use ANY scale minis with ANY game.

Rules written for 28mm, in terms of pre 1900 you have Black Powder (which is a pretty good rule set in my opinion, but some people don't like them for their genericness since they cover 1700-1900). To be honest I can't think of much else

What eras are you interested in? That can help.
Skirmish level...to be honest most skirmish level engagements only happened WW2 and up. Before that most of the tactical units were larger (A skirmish in Napoleonic times was much much larger than a skirmish now). That's why I lot of people like smaller scales for things pre-World War One. But, nothing wrong with 28.

Not WW2 still leaves 5000+ years of history to choose from. Sing your life, I think you're going to need to be more specific to get any applicable suggestions.

Skirmish level confrontations definitely happened prior to the 20th century. While many people only see the big battles in recorded history there have been an uncountable number of small skirmishes between soldiers, civilians, brigands, police, rebels, raiders, local feuds, etc.,.

Or you can zoom in on the skirmish line vs skirmish line confrontations that occurred between the larger blocks of formed soldiers. Even if the Napoleonic skirmishes could involve more soldiers than today's skirmishes doesn't mean you need to represent the entire confrontation at once. Nothing wrong with zooming in on the important part.

Then there's the issue of table space and figure count. Black Powder has been suggested by washout77, but in 28mm it can take a huge number of miniatures and a very, very large table.

We also don't have enough information about what the OP thinks makes a figure or rules set "good". Some people are so used to 40k/WFB's cartoon proportions that a historical model with realistic proportions will look bad to them and thus would be better off with some sculpts rather than others. As for rules, thanks to the internet, there's never been better access to a sheer massive variety of rules approaches.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Not WW2 still leaves 5000+ years of history to choose from. Sing your life, I think you're going to need to be more specific to get any applicable suggestions.


We also don't have enough information about what the OP thinks makes a figure or rules set "good". Some people are so used to 40k/WFB's cartoon proportions that a historical model with realistic proportions will look bad to them and thus would be better off with some sculpts rather than others. As for rules, thanks to the internet, there's never been better access to a sheer massive variety of rules approaches.

by "good" I meant high quality. So well sculpted, cool and original minatures and balanced, exciting rules.

Seems you can't many good historical skirmish games . I'd be better looking for company level.

In another thread, sing your life, you mentioned that you like WW1. So why don't we go with that for a starting point?

Renegade Miniatures work well if you like chunky figures:
http://www.renegademiniatures.com/ww1.htm

One back from two different forces will give you 16 figures to paint up and you can combine it with free rules like FUBAR.

http://thegamesshed.wordpress.com/2010/06/17/fubar-one-page-sfmodern-rules/

If you limit yourself to period equipment, the modern rules (the 4th ed link) should provide a good introductory game.

EDIT 2: Great War Miniatures also has a pretty solid range:
http://northstarfigures.com/list.php?man=20&cat=153&page=1

sing your life wrote:
by "good" I meant high quality. So well sculpted, cool and original minatures and balanced, exciting rules.

Seems you can't many good historical skirmish games . I'd be better looking for company level.

LOL. Way to throw the baby out with the bathwater. One person on one forum wanted more information before suggesting something so you chuck the whole idea out? That's hilarious.

And you still haven't provided any more information about your table space, the kind of figure count you'd like to see (as you can represent companies with as little as one figure and as many as there are soldiers) or even what era out of 5000+ years of human history you are interested in other than "not WW2". I had to go figure out what you liked by looking at your other posts. Why didn't you say you liked the Great War in this thread? It at least gives those trying to help you *somewhere* to start.

.

Yeah, I can't think of too many skirmish rule sets probably because Skirmish isn't my thing so I don't know a whole lot.

WW1? Well there's the great rule set by Two Fat Lardies, "Through The Mud and Blood". I've actually played that one, and it was a really enjoyable game. Can be scaled to pretty much anything too. Not good with miniatures too, I know a couple good 15mm ranges but nothing in 28 since I don't play 28mm.

Wow I feel so incompetent here haha

These systems looks quite interesting. I'l show them to my group when I next see them.

 sing your life wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Not WW2 still leaves 5000+ years of history to choose from. Sing your life, I think you're going to need to be more specific to get any applicable suggestions.


We also don't have enough information about what the OP thinks makes a figure or rules set "good". Some people are so used to 40k/WFB's cartoon proportions that a historical model with realistic proportions will look bad to them and thus would be better off with some sculpts rather than others. As for rules, thanks to the internet, there's never been better access to a sheer massive variety of rules approaches.

by "good" I meant high quality. So well sculpted, cool and original minatures and balanced, exciting rules.

Seems you can't many good historical skirmish games . I'd be better looking for company level.

Historical rules tend to not require a specific brand of figures. So, you can get rules from one company and then find the best sculpted figs for the period covered by the rules.

I would look at Saga (Gripping Beast does have their own figures but there are plenty of others out there. Pig Wars covers the same period and is a lot of fun. If Colonial gaming is of interest, The Sword and the Flame covers quite a bit, and there are some spectacular figures out there (Perry, Warlord, Empress and more). As others have mentioned Too Fat Lardies have rules for several periods that would work for you. I would also look at Smooth and Rifled ( http://smooth-and-rifled.blogspot.com/ ) for skirmish, they have free supplements for several periods and are pretty fun rules.

Jake

Well you have the excelent games produced by Warlord games as show below.

Pike & shot : As the name implies this is the age of pike men and musketeers working in unison alongside cavalry and to a certain degree cannons. It is mainly set around the thirty year war and such wars in that time of hisotry. The miniatures also lends themselvs well to skirmish games or for building a massive army if you are so inclined.
http://www.warlordgames.com/store/pike-shotte.html?___SID=U

Hail Caesare : Up from the biblical times and up to the dark ages and the war of the roses in England.
http://www.warlordgames.com/store/hail-caesar.html

Then you have the miniatures from Perry whom lends themselvs well to any historical game really
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=23_34

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=23_64

Saga gets another vote from me as a good set of skirmish rules, especailly if you're into Vikings and other such Dark Ages stuff.

Muskets and Tomahawks is a good choice if you've any interest in the French and Indian War.

 infinite_array wrote:

Muskets and Tomahawks is a good choice if you've any interest in the French and Indian War.

I'll have a look at M&T. Looks really interesting .

I've been consistently impressed with the rules from Too Fat Lardies. I had no idea there was a set for the Great War.

I've been playing around with Saga, and I'm very impressed. It's like they reached into my mind and plucked out everything I want in a game.

After playing this and Kings of War I don't know if I can go back to 40k and Fantasy. GW is literally the Internet Explorer of wargaming companies - a gigantic clusterfeth that everyone uses because everyone uses it.

I have to push you guys to play Saga and M&T, not only are they very good games with simple mechanics, the designer is a good friend and I helped playtest it
The thing is, as with all skirmish games, you need a dense scenery and it really is much better if you spend time creating the table instead of doing it the minimalist way

I'm familiar with Saga but not M&T - care to share?

I'll throw my hat in the ring with Brink of Battle: Skirmish Gaming through the Ages.

I designed it for any historical period, and it works. Just read our reviews. You can learn more at our website www.brinkofbattle.com or at Wargame Vault where you can get the pdf. If you want a print copy you can get it from Lulu. Full links are on our website under the Where to Buy tab at the top.

It is designed for 3-20 models per player. You can game anything with it from 3000BC to Ultramodern. Check out Anatoli's reviews and battle reports on his blog site too.

One book, any period, no rebasing. Handles between 20mm up to 54mm well. Let me know if you have questions.

I wouldn't go anywhere near rules by Two Fat Lardies, they are generally vague and unsatisfying.

+1 for SAGA

Clash of Empires for warhammer size historical games, but Hail Caesar are also excellent.

Perry Miniatures, Gripping Beast/Musketeer, Great War Minis - all great for figures.

I'm going to throw in a suggestion for DBA.

You can get the rules, with all the army lists fairly cheaply. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Simple-Ancient-Medieval-Wargaming-Including/dp/1291090185/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377888569&sr=8-1&keywords=de+bellis+antiquitatis

And while it's not to everyone's tastes, you can build armies in 28mm or 15mm quite cheaply and quickly and then build up from there towards bigger and better Ancient and Medieval games like Impetus or Hail Caesar.

I don't really know how TooFatLardies rules could be considered vague. Go check out the youtube videos on Chain of Command. It's very specific and is not a departure from their general approach.

Maybe it's a language barrier issue.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I don't really know how TooFatLardies rules could be considered vague. Go check out the youtube videos on Chain of Command. It's very specific and is not a departure from their general approach.

Maybe it's a language barrier issue.

It's a learned helplessness thing, the previous version of IABSM assumed that wargamers had a brain, a tongue and a modicum of common sense, when working out types of cover. Oddly many don't. Thus the internet meme.

Of course on the plus side, natural selection weeds out the more objectionable opponents allowing the rest of us to play the period and not the rules.

Thats possibly the sort of statement to put off prospective IABSM gamers.

Im sure some people like it, and others dont. We all like different things...

What's happening here is some sort of fight or argument from somewhere else on the internet is bleeding into the thread without any context.

Or you could be jumping to conclusions?

Never played TFL games, but knowing Rich, CoC will likely be a quality game.

He still owes me a demo of it actually next time he visits here...

I didn't mean *you* (Big P) were directly involved in a debate elsewhere, but that marielle was bringing in things said before. He even referred to it as an internet meme, so it must be referencing things people have said elsewhere that is now bleeding in here.

I know for a fact from places like TMP or Frothers that people argue about WW2 rules sets quite vociferously and passionately. Just read marielle's post. It only makes sense in the context of previous internet debates elsewhere. I also see a bit of it in Durfast's claim that the rules are vague. In IABSM, the only vague part is that the players need to settle on what terrain counts and what and how one goes about getting cover from it. If you start playing before having a conversation like that and then hope the rules will settle the argument mid game, you might find it vague and unsatisfying, but only because the approach taken to playing was wrong and the players didn't go through the procedure of hammering everything out. So it sounded to me like a position hardened in the flames of debate somewhere else on the internet.

.

Ahhh with ya now matey!

Yes, all rules seem to have their 'fanboys'. They love their own and everything else is muck and the people that play them are odd... Etc, etc.

Personally, I think people should just play what they like and enjoy themselves... Arguing over what rules are best, when choice is such a personal decision, is pointless at best.

Life is too short...

That said I dont get on with TFL games, but that may just be due to my lack of brain function more than anything else. Dont mean the rules are vague or poor, just not for me... Though that may change when Rich runs me a demo!

Does "moderns" count as Historicals for the purposes of this discussion?

I'm curious what the OP plays now, and if he wants his next game to be similar or completely different?

Yes, moderns definitely do count. Historians may disagree about how far back you have to go before you are doing history rather than journalism, but for miniature gaming, historicals generally means wargaming based on real conflicts or nations rather than fantasy or sci-fi ones. Some even consider speculative near future games historicals as long as they involve real world armed forces using current equipment.

I'd be down for some good, solid modern historicals games. Infinity kind of scratches that itch for me, but it's too futuristic. I think the highest "tech" I'd like to go is what might be equivalent of Modern Warfare 3 (at the farthest into the future), or Battlefield 3 to put it into video game terms.

Any rule set that has a good effect of fire on visible targets should work well. There's a set of 20th century and beyond rules called Company Commander available for free in a yahoo group. It's more of a 30+ miniatures a side and a vehicle or two sort of game, but it is brutal for those who leave their figures open to fire.

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Company_Commander

There's another set of rules for WW1/Great War skirmishing that has a similar level of lethality called Red Poppy White Feather. You'd have to add modern weapons, but it would make a great basis. I think it's based on a squad/section per player.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021017023319/http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/2541/Rules/Skirmish/Skirmish.html

If you like Infinity you wil like Force-on-Force.