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While I obviously conced that Broodlords are unable to shoot all witchfire, foccussed witchfire, and beam powers...due to BS0.

However I am trying to figure out if Maelstroms and Novas are witchfire shots that count as firing an "assault weapon"

I have an idea of the right answer but I am looking for confirmation.

Yes - they're witchfires. Can't make a shooting attack, can't cast witchfires.

The general witchfire powers say witchfires are shooting attacks but also state that if they have a listed sub-type to use those rules instead. Beams, Novas and Maelstroms do not state that they are shooting attacks so I say they can.

My opinion on this is rather unpopular though and your likely to have to go along with the common opinion of no.

 Abandon wrote:
The general witchfire powers say witchfires are shooting attacks but also state that if they have a listed sub-type to use those rules instead. Beams, Novas and Maelstroms do not state that they are shooting attacks so I say they can.

My opinion on this is rather unpopular though and your likely to have to go along with the common opinion of no.

Because your opinion is incorrect.

It does not say "use those rules instead" Instead is never mentioned...

All witchfires are shooting attacks...

"To use a witchfi.re power with the beam subrype..." (69)

Beam, Malestorm, and Nova are sub types. They are still Witchfires, and they still count as firing an Assault weapon.

Can you direct me to where it says that a model with BS0 cannot use a shooting attack whatsoever.

I am finding that a model with BS0 cannot shoot because he cannot achieve hit on a dice roll. However I am not finding that he cannot even shoot a weapon that automatically hits and requires no roll...like a maelstrom or nova.

In the characteristics section I see that WS0 does not allow a model to make attacks whatsoever...but this is not said of BS.

Zero Level characteristics Page 3

The rules for WS say "A model with Weapon Skill '0' is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows" (3)

If you can not strike blows with WS0 you can not shoot with a BS 0

Also Tyranid FaQ:
"Q: Can a Tyranid Broodlord (which has BS 0) use a witchfire psychic power that doesn’t require a roll To Hit? If not, is he able to re-roll the psychic power because he cannot use it? (p40)
A: No to both questions."

Unfortunately (because I'm currently building a 'nid army) the FAQ seems to rule out broodlords using Maelstroms or Novas at all. Maelstroms and Novas are witchfire powers, witchfire powers that don't require a roll To Hit. The FAQ says he can't use them.

Q: Can a Tyranid Broodlord (which has BS 0) use a witchfire psychic power that doesn’t require a roll To Hit? If not, is he able to re-roll the psychic power because he cannot use it? (p40)
A: No to both questions.

Thank you.

Problem solved.

They should have allowed him to reroll powers he can't use just like Mastery Level 1s get to reroll warp Charge 2 powers...but I know they FAQ'd that too.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Zero Level characteristics Page 3

The rules for WS say "A model with Weapon Skill '0' is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows" (3)

If you can not strike blows with WS0 you can not shoot with a BS 0

That is quite the leap there. It says you can not strike blows with WS0. Nowhere does it say you can not shoot with a BS0, and saying that you can't strike blows with WS0 doesn't even imply anything about shooting and BS0.

DexKivuli helped us with the FAQ.

So now we know it doesn't work for Broodlords specifically but there is nothing stopping future BS0 models from using them thus far.

 ductvader wrote:
DexKivuli helped us with the FAQ.

So now we know it doesn't work for Broodlords specifically but there is nothing stopping future BS0 models from using them thus far.

I posted the FaQ as well...

Rihgu wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Zero Level characteristics Page 3

The rules for WS say "A model with Weapon Skill '0' is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows" (3)

If you can not strike blows with WS0 you can not shoot with a BS 0

That is quite the leap there. It says you can not strike blows with WS0. Nowhere does it say you can not shoot with a BS0, and saying that you can't strike blows with WS0 doesn't even imply anything about shooting and BS0.

It really is not a leap. If you can not make attacks in CC with a WS 0, why would you be able to shoot at all with a BS 0.

Remember "Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field" (3)

no ability whatsoever in that field = they can not make attacks...

Well, seeing as there's no wording disallowing it we'll just have to wait and see if it ever comes up again.

 ductvader wrote:
Well, seeing as there's no wording disallowing it we'll just have to wait and see if it ever comes up again.

1) there really is wording disallowing it in the BRB.

2) The FaQ disallows it as well.

If it comes up follow the FaQ.

Rihgu wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Zero Level characteristics Page 3

The rules for WS say "A model with Weapon Skill '0' is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows" (3)

If you can not strike blows with WS0 you can not shoot with a BS 0

That is quite the leap there. It says you can not strike blows with WS0. Nowhere does it say you can not shoot with a BS0, and saying that you can't strike blows with WS0 doesn't even imply anything about shooting and BS0.

Please show us the required roll to hit an enemy with a shooting attack if you're BS0.

I don't think any one is arguing that you can make a roll to hit if you are BS0. The argument is if you have a BS0 model with a template weapon for example, there is nothing specifically stopping them from firing that template (other than the fact that I can't think of a single situation where this could occur).

Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means they have no ability whatsoever in that field.

Pretty clear bs0 cannot fire, add to the other FAQ

Q: What happens if a model with BS0 takes a Snap Shot? Do they
count as having a BS of 1? (13)
A: Models with BS 0 cannot make any form of Shooting
attack – see the rules for zero-level characteristics on page 3

Any form will include all the PSA and templates blasts etc.

The poor Broodlord's aim is so bad he even misses with weapons that automatically hit, unfortunately.

If you have no ability in that field, how are you performing an action in that field?

Given you have no permission to shoot, shooting will be quite tricky for that model.

I wasn't trying to say that BS0 can't not shoot, but rather that with only the line

"A model with Weapon Skill '0' is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows"

Does not in any way support the statement

"If you can not strike blows with WS0 you can not shoot with a BS 0"

With the other evidence you guys(and girls, if applicable) have provided, you can prove that you can't shoot with BS0, but citing a rule SPECIFICALLY about WS0 and not mentioning BS at all, and then claiming it applies to BS0 is just intellectually dishonest.

The sentence I cited is directly above the WS 0 entry, I read the 'cannot strike blows' as merely a example

GW just needs to make the Lord BS1 next time around.

If a Broodlord so much as throws a rock there should be a 1/6 chance of it hitting. Now as a psyker that should increase with manifested powers. Even if we say the Broodlord has no ability to throw or shoot objects whatsoever...which I doubt...AOE emanating in all directions from his brain should be exempt.

I am not arguing that should be means it is...just hoping for a future BS1.

delete...

Hopefully will have some BS in the new codex or better specific powers.

Still blessings are good.

Tyranid psychic powers will most likely work comparably to daemons. Mini charts with access to big book charts.

Rihgu wrote:
I wasn't trying to say that BS0 can't not shoot, but rather that with only the line

"A model with Weapon Skill '0' is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows"

Does not in any way support the statement

"If you can not strike blows with WS0 you can not shoot with a BS 0"

With the other evidence you guys(and girls, if applicable) have provided, you can prove that you can't shoot with BS0, but citing a rule SPECIFICALLY about WS0 and not mentioning BS at all, and then claiming it applies to BS0 is just intellectually dishonest.

Sure it does support the statement. Applying logic to the situation, if a 0 WS can not attack, a 0 BS can not shoot.

Also Nos is 100% correct:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you have no ability in that field, how are you performing an action in that field?

Given you have no permission to shoot, shooting will be quite tricky for that model.

No ability = not shooting, as you have no ability to shoot.

Ilke I said, a rather unpopular opinion

Because it has no basis in the reality that the rest of us read the rule book in?

rigeld2 wrote:
Because it has no basis in the reality that the rest of us read the rule book in?

I cannot speak for other peoples realities as it isl subject to interpretation and no doubt different people will see things differently. Just like now. I've debated this topic before and I believe I have collected enough peoples thoughts on it that I do not need to do so again. I'm ok with you having a different opinion than I do, I do not need to convince you nor belittle your thoughts on the matter. Thank you for having the same consideration.

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because it has no basis in the reality that the rest of us read the rule book in?

I cannot speak for other peoples realities as it isl subject to interpretation and no doubt different people will see things differently. Just like now. I've debated this topic before and I believe I have collected enough peoples thoughts on it that I do not need to do so again. I'm ok with you having a different opinion than I do, I do not need to convince you nor belittle your thoughts on the matter. Thank you for having the same consideration.

So you ignore the absolutely clear FAQ as well? Cool, have fun with that.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because it has no basis in the reality that the rest of us read the rule book in?

I cannot speak for other peoples realities as it isl subject to interpretation and no doubt different people will see things differently. Just like now. I've debated this topic before and I believe I have collected enough peoples thoughts on it that I do not need to do so again. I'm ok with you having a different opinion than I do, I do not need to convince you nor belittle your thoughts on the matter. Thank you for having the same consideration.

So you ignore the absolutely clear FAQ as well? Cool, have fun with that.

No but thank you for your concern.