JNAProductions wrote:
Which, yeah, I totally agree that slotting in a Battalion of 32 Guardsmen for 5 CP, 5+ regen on your CP and 5+ regen on your opponent's strats is bonkers good.

But without Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist... They're not. And this proposal-increasing the CP battery's cost by 30 points-would require barely any changes to the existing lists.

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is another discussion. Knights are OP - I play them. Castellan is at least 100 points under. Bringing knights back to life shouldn't happen. Plauge crawlers are a 180 point tank you get for 140. There are a lot of busted things in this game. I don't only pick on gaurd. Eldar Crimson hunters - DE ravagers and void ravens? These are all things that are at least 30 points undercosted.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is another discussion. Knights are OP - I play them. Castellan is at least 100 points under. Bringing knights back to life shouldn't happen. Plauge crawlers are a 180 point tank you get for 140. There are a lot of busted things in this game. I don't only pick on gaurd. Eldar Crimson hunters - DE ravagers and void ravens? These are all things that are at least 30 points undercosted.

Hmm, lemme look at General Discussion:
Guardsmen Whining
Infantry vs Elite Infantry
Rule of Three Question
Kill Team
Female Incubi
Kill Team
Command Points
Primaris Marines as Regular Marines
40k Players A Weird Crowd
Thousand Sons Advice
Ork Speculation
Kill Team
Superheavies at 1k
Ebay Discount
...
Ok. Glad to see you also have other complaints that you clearly care very deeply about and this isn't just a vendetta against Guard.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then where are the threads about them?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why does it matter how many marines it kills?

Your chaff is cheaper than mine and way stronger, it is:

1. Stronger on offense (range, strength, accuracy)
2. Stronger on defense (5+ save vs 6+ save)
3. Cheaper
4. Immune to Reaper (my squads give my opponent 1 point, yours give 0)
5. Able to receive orders. Shooting twice costs me 2CP, it costs you an order.

Explain to me how this is fair, thanks.

Tiny wall of guardsmen WILL be in rapid fire range at some point because Tyranids rely on assault and close range.

Range, yes. Strength, no-aren't Fleshborers S4? Accuracy, no, they both hit on a 4+.
Defense, yes... Until you run into morale, which Nids can easily be immune to and Guardsmen are not.
Cheaper... Are Termagants 5 Points? If they are, they can definitely go down to 4. If they're 4... They're the same price.
Reaper only matters if you play ITC.
And Teramagants can receive a -1 to hit, cover in the open, Synapse...

Hormagants are S3 and cost 5 points.

Termagants do have S4 guns, at 12" range. Guardsmen HANDILY win this fight... and Termagants are rarely in range of anything. They're there to die, and Guardsmen do that better.

Reaper only matters if you play ITC... what a BS comment.

"No one plays ITC, it's fake news" -Guard players

I didn't say no one plays ITC, I said Reaper only matters if you play ITC. For me, personally, I do not play ITC.

And in tournaments... Guard are not stomping around. They're good, they're competitive, but they aren't OP.

For casual play, one could argue Guard are too good. (I'd argue that other stuff could stand to be buffed.) But casual play isn't ITC, and doesn't feature Reaper.

I think I understand where you are coming from now.

Here is the truth - if you are consistantly showing up in the top 10 at events. Chances are every single unit in your list is OP.

So why is everyone talking about just guard and not BA or Knights or Custodes?

Because, let's see, what appeared in the top lists...

We've got Daemon Princes, Blightlord Terminators, Foul Blightspawn, Plagueburst Crawlers, Helverins and dual-Gatling Knights.
We've got Company Commander and Infantry squads, pretty much solely to provide CP for a Castellan, a Crusader, and two Gallants.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Slamginiusi and a Castellan.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Custodes and a Culexus for fun.
And we've got more CP Batteries providing Blood Angels and Knights.

Lists found here.

Which, yeah, I totally agree that slotting in a Battalion of 32 Guardsmen for 5 CP, 5+ regen on your CP and 5+ regen on your opponent's strats is bonkers good.

But without Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist... They're not. And this proposal-increasing the CP battery's cost by 30 points-would require barely any changes to the existing lists.
If you want to talk about nerfing the CP Battery or Soup, that's fine! Those show up in 4 of the top 5 lists.

But Guardsmen make up about 10% of each of those lists. Not very much.

My proposals would increase the cost of the batery by 50 points. 5 point gaurdsmen with 40 point commanders. IMO this is quite generous. The CC quite lierally generates 36 str 3 shots on his own. That is worth well more than 40 points.

That's still not much. And why aren't you talking about nerfing Slamginuis, or Knights, or Custodes? They're all in the top lists-hell, Knights were ALSO in 4/5 top lists, including number 1!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is another discussion. Knights are OP - I play them. Castellan is at least 100 points under. Bringing knights back to life shouldn't happen. Plauge crawlers are a 180 point tank you get for 140. There are a lot of busted things in this game. I don't only pick on gaurd. Eldar Crimson hunters - DE ravagers and void ravens? These are all things that are at least 30 points undercosted.

Hmm, lemme look at General Discussion:
Guardsmen Whining
Infantry vs Elite Infantry
Rule of Three Question
Kill Team
Female Incubi
Kill Team
Command Points
Primaris Marines as Regular Marines
40k Players A Weird Crowd
Thousand Sons Advice
Ork Speculation
Kill Team
Superheavies at 1k
Ebay Discount
...
Ok. Glad to see you also have other complaints that you clearly care very deeply about and this isn't just a vendetta against Guard.

So because there isn't an active thread about it, it's just a vendetta against Imperial Guard?
Once again...drop the martyr act. Please.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is another discussion. Knights are OP - I play them. Castellan is at least 100 points under. Bringing knights back to life shouldn't happen. Plauge crawlers are a 180 point tank you get for 140. There are a lot of busted things in this game. I don't only pick on gaurd. Eldar Crimson hunters - DE ravagers and void ravens? These are all things that are at least 30 points undercosted.

Hmm, lemme look at General Discussion:
Guardsmen Whining
Infantry vs Elite Infantry
Rule of Three Question
Kill Team
Female Incubi
Kill Team
Command Points
Primaris Marines as Regular Marines
40k Players A Weird Crowd
Thousand Sons Advice
Ork Speculation
Kill Team
Superheavies at 1k
Ebay Discount
...
Ok. Glad to see you also have other complaints that you clearly care very deeply about and this isn't just a vendetta against Guard.

Ice_can wrote:

What unit can go up against equal points of Infantry squads and win? What units can go up againy equal points of Infantry squads plus Commanders and win?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then where are the threads about them?

Make one - I will agree with the OP crap in there that needs to be nerfed. Honestly - I think there wouldn't be any disagree about it.

Is the Castellan OP?

Pretty much everyone "Yeah...It hurt me bad" "It's OP".

I stopped using it. I was playing it again my buddy who was playing a mech IG list and it killed a shadowsword and a command tank in the same turn. I felt like I sucked his soul out through his chest. He looked so sad after that. I knew at that point...this thing is busted. Because he lived through 2 rounds of shadow sword fire (3++ save OP).

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's kind of like...why are these pathetic humans are strong as a space marine? (catachans) Why do they do more damage than my space marine (all gaurd) These are the thoughts that consume lot of players minds.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Aggressors put out, at 18", 12+2d6 shots each at S4 AP0 when not moving.

That's 19 shots per dude, for 57 on a 111 point squad.

So that's 38 hits, 25.33 wounds, and 16.89 dead Guardsmen.

That leaves 3 Guard and a Company Commander left, who put out 6 S3 shots and 1 S4 shot (there's a point leftover, I'm giving the Commander a Boltgun). For 3.67 hits, 1.22 wounds, and .41 wounds actually dealt. Double that to .82 if the Guardsmen walk into charge range to get Rapid Fire.

Next round, the Aggressors kill the remaining Guardsmen with bullets to spare. Commander shoots one more time, does barely anything, and gets pasted.

Ice_can wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Aggressors put out, at 18", 12+2d6 shots each at S4 AP0 when not moving.

That's 19 shots per dude, for 57 on a 111 point squad.

So that's 38 hits, 25.33 wounds, and 16.89 dead Guardsmen.

That leaves 3 Guard and a Company Commander left, who put out 6 S3 shots and 1 S4 shot (there's a point leftover, I'm giving the Commander a Boltgun). For 3.67 hits, 1.22 wounds, and .41 wounds actually dealt. Double that to .82 if the Guardsmen walk into charge range to get Rapid Fire.

Next round, the Aggressors kill the remaining Guardsmen with bullets to spare. Commander shoots one more time, does barely anything, and gets pasted.

so Stationary unhurt aggressors which have an 18inch range get to shoot first against a unit with a 24 inch range? Way to stack that example so blatantly
If the agressors move or the guard shoot first?

Ice_can wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Aggressors put out, at 18", 12+2d6 shots each at S4 AP0 when not moving.

That's 19 shots per dude, for 57 on a 111 point squad.

So that's 38 hits, 25.33 wounds, and 16.89 dead Guardsmen.

That leaves 3 Guard and a Company Commander left, who put out 6 S3 shots and 1 S4 shot (there's a point leftover, I'm giving the Commander a Boltgun). For 3.67 hits, 1.22 wounds, and .41 wounds actually dealt. Double that to .82 if the Guardsmen walk into charge range to get Rapid Fire.

Next round, the Aggressors kill the remaining Guardsmen with bullets to spare. Commander shoots one more time, does barely anything, and gets pasted.

so Stationary unhurt aggressors which have an 18inch range get to shoot first against a unit with a 24 inch range? Way to stack that example so blatantly
If the agressors move or the guard shoot first?

 Marmatag wrote:
How do i put Aggressors in my Tyranids list? And once i get them in there, how do I deal with being screened out of range?

 Marmatag wrote:
How do i put Aggressors in my Tyranids list? And once i get them in there, how do I deal with being screened out of range?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Aggressors put out, at 18", 12+2d6 shots each at S4 AP0 when not moving.

That's 19 shots per dude, for 57 on a 111 point squad.

So that's 38 hits, 25.33 wounds, and 16.89 dead Guardsmen.

That leaves 3 Guard and a Company Commander left, who put out 6 S3 shots and 1 S4 shot (there's a point leftover, I'm giving the Commander a Boltgun). For 3.67 hits, 1.22 wounds, and .41 wounds actually dealt. Double that to .82 if the Guardsmen walk into charge range to get Rapid Fire.

Next round, the Aggressors kill the remaining Guardsmen with bullets to spare. Commander shoots one more time, does barely anything, and gets pasted.

so Stationary unhurt aggressors which have an 18inch range get to shoot first against a unit with a 24 inch range? Way to stack that example so blatantly
If the agressors move or the guard shoot first?

I see you ignored my chosen examples...

 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, 8 Infantry Squads with FRFSRF are 440 points, minimum. Actually more, since Rule of Three, unless that's ignored.

They put out...

4 BS 3+ shots.
296 BS 4+ shots.

For 150.67 hits.
25.11 wounds.
And 4.19 unsaved wounds. Scary.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Aggressors put out, at 18", 12+2d6 shots each at S4 AP0 when not moving.

That's 19 shots per dude, for 57 on a 111 point squad.

So that's 38 hits, 25.33 wounds, and 16.89 dead Guardsmen.

That leaves 3 Guard and a Company Commander left, who put out 6 S3 shots and 1 S4 shot (there's a point leftover, I'm giving the Commander a Boltgun). For 3.67 hits, 1.22 wounds, and .41 wounds actually dealt. Double that to .82 if the Guardsmen walk into charge range to get Rapid Fire.

Next round, the Aggressors kill the remaining Guardsmen with bullets to spare. Commander shoots one more time, does barely anything, and gets pasted.

Edit: One Captain on Dawneagle with Bolters puts out 12 shots in Rapid Fire range. Give the Guardsmen first turn AND start 'em in Rapid Fire.

That's 108 BS 4+ shots and 2 BS 3+ shots, for 55.33 hits, 9.22 wounds, and 1.54 go through. The Captain then shoots 12 times, hits 11.67 times, wounds 7.78 and kills 5.19. He then charges the Commanders (or, since he has Fly and a 14" movement, shot one and charged the other) and kills, we'll say JUST ONE. Just the Commander. The 5 Guardsmen in the one squad do 6 swings, 3 hits, .5 wounds, and .08 dealt.

Next turn, the 5 Guard fall back, the other two FRFSRF, for 74 BS 4+ and 1 BS 3+, or 37.67 hits, 6.11 wounds, and 1.02 dealt. Our Captain is now on about 4.5 wounds left. He then shoots, killing another 5, charges the Commander and kills him, leaving us with 20 Guardsmen and no orders.

I won't bother finishing the math.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, 8 Infantry Squads with FRFSRF are 440 points, minimum. Actually more, since Rule of Three, unless that's ignored.

They put out...

4 BS 3+ shots.
296 BS 4+ shots.

For 150.67 hits.
25.11 wounds.
And 4.19 unsaved wounds. Scary.

Ice_can wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Aggressors put out, at 18", 12+2d6 shots each at S4 AP0 when not moving.

That's 19 shots per dude, for 57 on a 111 point squad.

So that's 38 hits, 25.33 wounds, and 16.89 dead Guardsmen.

That leaves 3 Guard and a Company Commander left, who put out 6 S3 shots and 1 S4 shot (there's a point leftover, I'm giving the Commander a Boltgun). For 3.67 hits, 1.22 wounds, and .41 wounds actually dealt. Double that to .82 if the Guardsmen walk into charge range to get Rapid Fire.

Next round, the Aggressors kill the remaining Guardsmen with bullets to spare. Commander shoots one more time, does barely anything, and gets pasted.

so Stationary unhurt aggressors which have an 18inch range get to shoot first against a unit with a 24 inch range? Way to stack that example so blatantly
If the agressors move or the guard shoot first?

I see you ignored my chosen examples...

Qhen your first example is an Imperial Guard LOW
And the others a 400 point models so what does 8 infantry squads with FRFSRF do to a lanradier?

Asmodios wrote:
Now we have come full circle to old threads about guard where they are magically always in RF range at full strength, with orders while simultaneously holding objectives and screening an entire army.

But if you do the math on any other unit being in RF range of the guardsman at full strength you're being unrealistic

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Aggressors put out, at 18", 12+2d6 shots each at S4 AP0 when not moving.

That's 19 shots per dude, for 57 on a 111 point squad.

So that's 38 hits, 25.33 wounds, and 16.89 dead Guardsmen.

That leaves 3 Guard and a Company Commander left, who put out 6 S3 shots and 1 S4 shot (there's a point leftover, I'm giving the Commander a Boltgun). For 3.67 hits, 1.22 wounds, and .41 wounds actually dealt. Double that to .82 if the Guardsmen walk into charge range to get Rapid Fire.

Next round, the Aggressors kill the remaining Guardsmen with bullets to spare. Commander shoots one more time, does barely anything, and gets pasted.

so Stationary unhurt aggressors which have an 18inch range get to shoot first against a unit with a 24 inch range? Way to stack that example so blatantly
If the agressors move or the guard shoot first?

I see you ignored my chosen examples...

Qhen your first example is an Imperial Guard LOW
And the others a 400 point models so what does 8 infantry squads with FRFSRF do to a lanradier?

Lets take a look:
A LRC is about 300 points (8 for 2 Hurricane Bolters, 44 for Twin Assault Cannon, 244 base for 296)
For that price, you can get:
6 Squads and 2 commanders, giving you 4 squads with orders and 2 squads without, OR
5 squads and 3 Commanders, giving you 5 squads with Orders..

Case 1 (6 squads)
144 shots in rapid fire from FRFSRF, 180 total
90 hits
15 wounds
2.5 through saves.

The Crusader returns fire, split-firing at 3 different squads, 1 for each gun:
Squad 1 Hurricane Bolter: 3.5 dead
Squad 2 Hurricane Bolter: 3.5 dead
Squad 3 Twin Assault Cannon: 5.5 dead.
Total: 12 dead, rounding down.

//ignore morale here, because even without it the Crusader wins

The Guardsmen fire back, with the 3 Full Strength Squads and 1 least-damaged squad (3 men dead) receiving FRFSRF:
132 FRFSRF, 154 after the damaged squads remaining added
77 hits
13 wounds
2 after saves (Crusader is now at 12)

The Crusader fires back at the remaining 3 Full Strength Squads, with similar effect: one reduced by 3 men, one reduced by 4 men, one reduced by 5 men; 12 more casualties.
This leaves two 7 Men squads, two 6 Men squads, and two 5 man squads remaining.

//ignore morale here, because even without the Crusader wins.

The Guardsmen fire back, with the strongest squads receiving FRFSRF again.
124 shots
62 hits
10 wounds
2 through armor (Crusader is now at 10 wounds)

The Crusader fires back at the stronger squads, with similar effect: one reduced by 3, to 4, one reduced by 4, to 3, and one reduced by 5, to 1 (must be a 6 man squad!)

//ignore morale here because even without it the crusader wins

The orders are given to the strongest squads (now there is a 6 man, two 5 men, a 4 man, a 3 man, and a sergeant.)
64 from FRFSRF, 14 more from non-ordered, for a total of 78 shots
39 hits
6.5 wounds
Crusader suffers 1 wound (down to 9)

Crusader fires back at the stronger squads, with similar effect: One is reduced by 3 to 2, one is reduced by 4 to 1, and one is reduced by 5 to 1.

//ignore morale here, because even without it, the Crusader wins

The orders are given to the strongest of the remaining squads: a 4 man, a 3 man, a two man, and 3 sergeants.
24 shots from FRFSRF, none from other sergeants (if it's fair to ignore morale, it's fair to ignore their laspistols).
12 hits
2 wounds
Crusader suffers 0 barring bad luck, still at 9.

Crusader fires back, destroying the 3 man, destroying the 4 man, and destroying the two man, leaving 3 sergeants.

The Imperial Guard lose and the Crusader remains in its top bracket, even if we ignore morale.