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Honestly, portraying dwarfs as an alien species when dwarfism is just a human condition is quite frankly offensive. Honestly, I'm glad Squats got squatted and hope they never return.
Wat
Dude Squats are abhumans. Where are you getting this bullgak idea that Squats are Xenos? They are literally called Homo Sapiens Rotundus in Rogue Trader.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Dude Squats are abhumans. Where are you getting this bullgak idea that Squats are Xenos? They are literally called Homo Sapiens Rotundus in Rogue Trader.
I didn't know that. In that case, I have nothing against having actual dwarfs in 40k, but there's really no reason to have them as their own faction then, at least not until someone can argue that Ogryns and Ratlings should become their own factions as well.
Dude Squats are abhumans. Where are you getting this bullgak idea that Squats are Xenos? They are literally called Homo Sapiens Rotundus in Rogue Trader.
I didn't know that. In that case, I have nothing against having actual dwarfs in 40k, but there's really no reason to have them as their own faction then, at least not until someone can argue that Ogryns and Ratlings should become their own factions as well.
Ogryns and Ratlings don't have their own civilization that existed prior to Imperial contact.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
pm713 wrote:It's like complaining elves are just tall humans.
It's not, because elves aren't actually real, whereas dwarfs are.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:If the condition is named after the folklore, then that means the folklore came first? I don't really understand how something can be offensive if it's literally the etymological foundation of the condition?
Also, the oldest sources of Norse myth actually make no mention of Dwarves as short - hell, four of them hold up the sky!
That's a good point about the Norse Dwarves. It's the same in the Elder Scrolls series; Dwemer or Dwarves are portrayed as being just as tall as any other race, so I think they do it right. As I said, I only suspect that the condition was named after the folklore, which is pretty offensive in of itself when you think about it, right? I don't know. Maybe dwarfs in fantasy are fine, since they probably came first, and it's the name of the condition that's the real issue? Come to think of it, is that why some dwarfs don't like that term and prefer the phrase, "short person" instead?
Show me the centuries old blacksmith. Show me the dwarf so I can fanboy. A dwarf is distinct from somebody with dwarfism unless dwarfism has effects I've never heard of.
Dwemer are elves weirdly. But then in TES so are the orcs...
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
When ambiguity is turned into canon: There are a lot of people who say "Ultramarines would never behave that way" or "A commissar will always execute if a soldier hesitates". When you actually delve into the Fluff these stereotypes aren't always true. Titus from the Space Marine video game felt the Codex Astartes is a guideline. Gaunt from Gaunt's Ghost keeps his men on task and doesn't execute them over incidental crap.
Hijacked Storylines:40k is a big universe, but when plot for one race gets hijacked by another it becomes stupid. Ullanor is the Ork homeworld, having Armageddon be Ullanor was fine, because both are big parts of the Ork storyline. But then the Great Rift happens and its no longer Orks vs Humans; now Daemons and Angron are rampaging across it. I know Angron started the First War for Armageddon, but still why can't Orks just be the legitimate threat they are?
Wyzilla wrote:Ogryns and Ratlings don't have their own civilization that existed prior to Imperial contact.
That sounds more like an excuse for wedging dwarfs in as a faction rather than an inspired idea for a genuinely interesting new one.
pm713 wrote:A dwarf is distinct from somebody with dwarfism unless dwarfism has effects I've never heard of.
The heck are you talking about? A dwarf is literally someone dwarfism.
dwarf (n). A person who is of unusually or abnormally small stature because of a medical condition; a person affected by dwarfism.
DontEatRawHagis wrote:When ambiguity is turned into canon: There are a lot of people who say "Ultramarines would never behave that way" or "A commissar will always execute if a soldier hesitates". When you actually delve into the Fluff these stereotypes aren't always true. Titus from the Space Marine video game felt the Codex Astartes is a guideline. Gaunt from Gaunt's Ghost keeps his men on task and doesn't execute them over incidental crap.
This is more a problem with fans than with actual writers I think.
DontEatRawHagis wrote:Hijacked Storylines:40k is a big universe, but when plot for one race gets hijacked by another it becomes stupid. Ullanor is the Ork homeworld, having Armageddon be Ullanor was fine, because both are big parts of the Ork storyline. But then the Great Rift happens and its no longer Orks vs Humans; now Daemons and Angron are rampaging across it. I know Angron started the First War for Armageddon, but still why can't Orks just be the legitimate threat they are?
DontEatRawHagis wrote: When ambiguity is turned into canon: There are a lot of people who say "Ultramarines would never behave that way" or "A commissar will always execute if a soldier hesitates". When you actually delve into the Fluff these stereotypes aren't always true. Titus from the Space Marine video game felt the Codex Astartes is a guideline. Gaunt from Gaunt's Ghost keeps his men on task and doesn't execute them over incidental crap.
Hijacked Storylines:40k is a big universe, but when plot for one race gets hijacked by another it becomes stupid. Ullanor is the Ork homeworld, having Armageddon be Ullanor was fine, because both are big parts of the Ork storyline. But then the Great Rift happens and its no longer Orks vs Humans; now Daemons and Angron are rampaging across it. I know Angron started the First War for Armageddon, but still why can't Orks just be the legitimate threat they are?
how is this a hijacked storyline? sounds to me like there might be some hints of MORE storyline, the world might just have importance to Khorne too.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
he's not, a little bit of the blurb in the core rulebook on battleground armageddeon in fact notes they tried summoning him on the world but where stopped. the world seems to be of special signfcigent to Angron given this IMHO.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: how is this a hijacked storyline? sounds to me like there might be some hints of MORE storyline, the world might just have importance to Khorne too.
Except that every story is getting more daemons because of the Great Rift. The Blood Angels vs Tyranids storyline at Baal got hijacked by Chaos when Daemons killed off the Tyranids attacking the planet.
Similarly the Sanctus Reach campaign was Orks vs Imperial Guard and Knights. By the end of the campaign Space Wolves and Daemons were involved... I can see the Space Wolves, but Daemons? Why???
Honestly, portraying dwarfs as an alien species when dwarfism is just a human condition is quite frankly offensive. Honestly, I'm glad Squats got squatted and hope they never return.
I was gonna say something but it was already addressed.
Snake Tortoise wrote:The Salamanders. They just seem boring to me; there to make up the numbers. Perhaps I just don't know enough about them
Just cuz they're the "good guys" they get lumped into Ultramarine territory since GW dont do the 18th any favors. BL has done a bunch to fluff out the original legions.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:I don't think the salamanders are the most boring loyal legion, the imperial fists and ultramarines have that spot well and truly pegged.
Ultras have had the spotlight for waaaaay too long. I hope GW bring some of the 30k flavour to vulcan's sons.
I think the lore is dislike the most is how the mechanicum was transformed into the Mechanicus and by proxy the lack of Dark mechanicum in 40k. I know daemon engines are made by them, but where's the corrupted skitarii, castellan infused by the warp, etc....?
Wyzilla wrote:Ogryns and Ratlings don't have their own civilization that existed prior to Imperial contact.
That sounds more like an excuse for wedging dwarfs in as a faction rather than an inspired idea for a genuinely interesting new one.
Welcome to early 40k - it was literally WHFBin SPAAAAACE!, so the major Fantasy races had to crop up somehow. After all:
- IG: Humans in Space
- Eldar: Elves in Space
- Dark Eldar: Evil Elves in Space (once we hit 3rd edition)
- SM: Knights in Space
- Necrons: Undead in Space (eventually - they were a late 2nd ed addition)
- Ogryns: Ogres in Space
- Ratlings: Halflings in Space
- Orks: Orcs in Space
- Chaos: Chaos in Space...
Some of the SM Chapters bring other stereotypes into play, too...
- BA: Vampires in Space
- DA: Monks in Space
- UM: Romans in Space
- SW: Vikings (and/or Werewolves) in Space
The Squat background initially had them as a civilisation which got separated from other Human worlds during the Dark Age of Technology. Over time, adaptation to their plants caused the change in general statures (similarly to the Ogryns and Ratlings), and they developed their own culture, technology and fighting style. RT Squats cover biker gangs and, to a degree, the Viking look as well (before SW acquired much of that trope). A lot of their character can be seen more in Epic than in 40k, as we got to see things like the Land Trains, Overlord Armoured Airships and other vehicles that (at the time) didn't fit into 40k.
The downside is that, outside of the Epic stuff, they never really had a champion within the Design Studio, so they never got much development during 2nd edition - despite several army lists promising people would be able to take allies from Codex: Squats. As a result, they fell by the wayside in the transition to 3rd edition, and people kept asking for them until JJ had his "the Homeworlds got eaten by Tyranids!" moment (despite that not making sense due to their position in the galaxy).
There is a second Dwarf-themed race in the setting - the Demiurg - which are meant to be a Xenos client race of the Tau, but so far I think they've only cropped up in Battlefleet Gothic.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Wyzilla wrote:Ogryns and Ratlings don't have their own civilization that existed prior to Imperial contact.
That sounds more like an excuse for wedging dwarfs in as a faction rather than an inspired idea for a genuinely interesting new one.
The Squat background initially had them as a civilisation which got separated from other Human worlds during the Dark Age of Technology. Over time, adaptation to their plants caused the change in general statures (similarly to the Ogryns and Ratlings), and they developed their own culture, technology and fighting style. RT Squats cover biker gangs and, to a degree, the Viking look as well (before SW acquired much of that trope). A lot of their character can be seen more in Epic than in 40k, as we got to see things like the Land Trains, Overlord Armoured Airships and other vehicles that (at the time) didn't fit into 40k.
Hmm. That's actually a much better rationale than I suspected they had, though I suspect at this stage, the only way we'll ever see Squats return is as one-offs a la Necromunda; maybe an Inquisitorial advisor, Ecclesiastic priest, Militarum mechanic or some such role.
Another thing I dislike is how often planets in 40k are depicted as having a single biome. Like a planet that's entirely a steaming jungle, as if the climate is totally consistent from pole to pole. I don't mind this occasionally, but it seems silly to have it as the norm.
Primaris, they seem rushed in comparision to most of the other 40k entities.
If they had boiled it out during the gathering storm i would complain but some just seem too perfect in their design and their inception. There is also their gear which isn't 'new' and shouldn't be treated as such its just upgraded equipment.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
1) They are NOT incompetent (mostly)
2) They always do NOT suffer 95% casualties (mostly)
3) They are NOT incapable of containing an uprising or an invasion, unless totally overwhelming (mostly)
4) Commissars are NOT trigger-happy maniacs, shooting people at the slightest sign of hesitation (mostly)
5) They are NOT there, just waiting for the Marines to save the day (mostly)
6) They do NOT throw themselves thoughtlessly into the enemy fire, just to be shot dead (mostly, or unless they are from Krieg)
1) They are NOT incompetent (mostly)
2) They always do NOT suffer 95% casualties (mostly)
3) They are NOT incapable of containing an uprising or an invasion, unless totally overwhelming (mostly)
4) Commissars are NOT trigger-happy maniacs, shooting people at the slightest sign of hesitation (mostly)
5) They are NOT there, just waiting for the Marines to save the day (mostly)
6) They do NOT throw themselves thoughtlessly into the enemy fire, just to be shot dead (mostly, or unless they are from Krieg)
Ha, exalted. I have the same view. There is a reason the Imperium has stood for 10,000 years mostly intact, and it isn't because of the space marines.
1) They are NOT incompetent (mostly) 2) They always do NOT suffer 95% casualties (mostly) 3) They are NOT incapable of containing an uprising or an invasion, unless totally overwhelming (mostly) 4) Commissars are NOT trigger-happy maniacs, shooting people at the slightest sign of hesitation (mostly) 5) They are NOT there, just waiting for the Marines to save the day (mostly) 6) They do NOT throw themselves thoughtlessly into the enemy fire, just to be shot dead (mostly, or unless they are from Krieg)
Well, some commissars are. But, as pointed out in the Ciaphas Cain novels, those commissars tend to get killed by enemy fire. In the back. Whilst the enemy is in front of them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/04 09:40:28
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
1) They are NOT incompetent (mostly)
2) They always do NOT suffer 95% casualties (mostly)
3) They are NOT incapable of containing an uprising or an invasion, unless totally overwhelming (mostly)
4) Commissars are NOT trigger-happy maniacs, shooting people at the slightest sign of hesitation (mostly)
5) They are NOT there, just waiting for the Marines to save the day (mostly)
6) They do NOT throw themselves thoughtlessly into the enemy fire, just to be shot dead (mostly, or unless they are from Krieg)
Well, some commissars are. But, as pointed out in the Ciaphas Cain novels, those commissars tend to get killed by enemy fire. In the back. Whilst the enemy is in front of them.
Those Eldar are real cunning. Killing the Commisar in his own bed. With his knife. Dressed like one of us too. We'll get them back though.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Well, some commissars are. But, as pointed out in the Ciaphas Cain novels, those commissars tend to get killed by enemy fire. In the back. Whilst the enemy is in front of them.
Those Eldar are real cunning. Killing the Commisar in his own bed. With his knife. Dressed like one of us too. We'll get them back though.
Or by Ork snipers... using long lasguns... #CelestialLions
Welcome to early 40k - it was literally WHFBin SPAAAAACE!, so the major Fantasy races had to crop up somehow. After all:
.
I feel like a lot of people complaining about the lore in this thread, this plays a major part in it. People just don't get how 40k came into existence as an off shoot to fantasy.
In that case, I have nothing against having actual dwarfs in 
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
Neutran Panzergrenadiers, 
Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, 
Order of the Silver Hand
