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I was just going over the 6e rulebook again, and according to it a normal non-apoc game can go up to 4000 points now (see page 108 on the mini-rulebook), instead of the 2500 cap in 5e, they just say that you should expect it to take all day to play! I was wondering, has anyone tried playing a 4000 point non-Apocalypse game yet? Seems lime it could be very fun or very tedious depending on what you bring...

I've done it, the main problem is, the armies really dont scale too well at that point, even with double FOC, it's a bit rough.

It's easier to ignore the FOC and just throw what you have on the table, but it still ends up wonky and unbalanced

 dpal666 wrote:
I've done it, the main problem is, the armies really dont scale too well at that point, even with double FOC, it's a bit rough.

It's easier to ignore the FOC and just throw what you have on the table, but it still ends up wonky and unbalanced

What issues were you running into, and were you using double or triple FoC?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
according to it a normal non-apoc game can go up to 4000 points now (see page 108 on the mini-rulebook), instead of the 2500 cap in 5e

It's worth noting that this isn't exactly a cap or a rule - the 4,000 points example is just that, an example. In theory you could go much higher...! I've played a 10,000 points match with 5 people on each side. This took all day as expected - roughly 8 hours in all - but having extra players helps out a lot there.
Officially, it was Apocalypse, but it might as well not have been since everyone brought 2000 to 3000 points based on double FOC structure, there were very few Apocalypse or Forgeworld units and I believe only one super-heavy, a Baneblade. It was a bit hectic at times but there was a referee governing over it all so aside from all the milling around the tables, it all went pretty smoothly.

For 4,000 points, are we talking one player each side? That would take about the same time I guess, maybe a bit less... I'd suggest triple FOC for that but also, try to come up with an unusual scenario for it. Having that many units converging on one lonely Relic or, worse still, trying to count up all those kill points at the end can get messy!! Instead I find an objective system of about 5 or 6 objectives, where each is worth a few points at the end plus Linebreaker/Slay the Warlord, does the job nicely.

Well at my flgs I have watched a 3500 point game space marines against blood angels.

Honestly it was just kind of boring to me I only watched a bit but it took them forever (I was playing a few of my own games but smaller as well).

It just seemed there were to many tanks and vehichles and stuff EVERYWHERE.

I don't really like larger point games and don't see the point of apocalypse right now (maybe i will understand later haha).

But I am not sure how the FOC was formed for that game but must have been a double FOC I would think.

I think its just very tedious when its only a 1v1 match at such high int levels, I was able to play a 750 point match and a 1500 point match and I don't think they finished so I think I would have had time for another 750 game haha

I thought that the FOC only worked up to 2000pts then after that, as people have said, it becomes rather wonky.

TBH the biggest reason to play Apocalypse above 2000 points is because superheavies eat up a lot of points without taking as many dice to resolve as an equal point value in conventional units. By adding the big guns you significantly cut down on the tedious dice rolling that makes 2000+ point games so little fun.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 dpal666 wrote:
I've done it, the main problem is, the armies really dont scale too well at that point, even with double FOC, it's a bit rough.

It's easier to ignore the FOC and just throw what you have on the table, but it still ends up wonky and unbalanced

What issues were you running into, and were you using double or triple FoC?

things just got too unbalanced, ie. with my eldar, even 6-9 HS choices aren't enough to chew though very much at these point levels.
I've done double and triple FOC and ran into the same problems.

It looks great on a table though. a good excuse for me to put down 120 guardians.

I've played normal games (i.e. with FOC restrictions) all the way up to 6-7,000 points. Problem usually becomes the fact that we didn't have enough infantry to balance all the 'goodies' (i.e. tanks and souped up HQ choices).

 captain bloody fists wrote:
I thought that the FOC only worked up to 2000pts then after that, as people have said, it becomes rather wonky.

In 6th edition, you get one FoC per 2000 points. It still gets a little wonky since some armies (IG for one) have no problem filling up 2000 points of stuff, but some armies might end up taking less than ideal equipment or units to fill out 2k.

The biggest game I ever played (1 on 1 anyway) was I think 3000 points back in 5th edition, with really loosey-goosey rules on FoC. Dice and army lists made it very one sided, but I've had big fun games before. Honestly, if I did play Apocalypse (I'd like to!) I'd probably want to limit it to 1 superheavy per side, since beyond that it seems like it could very easily just become a superheavy shooting gallery where the targets are masses of expensive models who won't do dick.

They take forever, Apoc scale with a bunch of 40k units and none of the big toys makes the game just drag on and on.

Not to be rude, but what are you guys talking about? In the past month I've played a 4k vs 2x2.5k and a 3k vs 2x2k matches... Both took about 4 hours and as the loner I had no troubles with the scale up... In fact, in the 4k match I only used 1 FOC as SM with BA allies. Tons of fun.

We do 3-5k battles all the time on 5x6 tables. Often its 2 players against a third. Rarely takes as long as two 2k battles. What codex can't make a good 2k, single FOC list? Just take one of those and double it.

Your games are shorter because you have more people. With two on each side units are deployed and moved twice as quickly and if you're dealing with different units, you can even perform two shooting attacks or two assaults at the same time.

 Super Ready wrote:
Your games are shorter because you have more people. With two on each side units are deployed and moved twice as quickly and if you're dealing with different units, you can even perform two shooting attacks or two assaults at the same time.

To a point maybe. I've found that multiple players tends to mean lots of sitting around waiting to shoot at something because the target's owner is busy dealing with incoming fire from someone else on your team. With a 1v1 game you might not be able to act with multiple units simultaneously, but you'll never have those communication problems.

 Shandara wrote:
I've played normal games (i.e. with FOC restrictions) all the way up to 6-7,000 points. Problem usually becomes the fact that we didn't have enough infantry to balance all the 'goodies' (i.e. tanks and souped up HQ choices).

Not enough infantry?

HQ: 4x CCS + advisors + chimeras, 10x Priest, 4x techpriest + servitors
Elite: 6x 10-man stormtroopers + chimeras
Troops: 12x Infantry Platoons
Fast Attack: 6x 3 Vendettas
Heavy Support: 18x Leman Russes
Total: 1790 troops, 100+ tanks (72 Chimeras, 18 Leman Russes)

Where are your feeble gods now heretics?

I meant we usually didn't have enough models to take enough infantry to balance all the tanks

Of course, with such an Imperial Guard list, you may be better served by moving your units with a shovel.

For me, once you crest about 2500pts (or maybe 3000pts), you shouldn't be playing haphazardly.

Meaning, if you're going to spend all day playing a 5000pt game (with or without Apoc), you should come up with some guidelines and expectations.

Unless you start bringing superheavies (not necessarily Strength D) or giant point sink units, the game can and will bog down.

OTOH, if you come up with even a brief sketch of a scenario, and cobble together a few basic rules, you can have a ton of fun.

One of the games that I lvoed playing was back in 4th edition, with my brother you loved drop pod marines. We did 3000pts, with my IG on one side, his marines on the other. The story was simple: he needed to break my army and claim three objectives. I deployed anywhere in roughly half the board, with plenty of terrain and bunkers. He got the first turn, with half his stuff drop podding in as normal. We added a few rules (devestators could shoot normally after podding if 10 men strong, tanks could deep strike in, and any terminator unit with a character got a re-roll on scatter).

The game played fast and furious. We both got a lot of advantages that played to the scenario, though he got more. I was the better player and still won, but his captain did wipe out my command to claim one of the objectives.

The point is, as long as both players are honest and open about their skill level, army strength, and expectations, you can play really fun game that's more than just rolling buckets of dice.


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More on topic:

With dual FOC, fortifications, and allies, no army should really struggle to hit 4000pts. At least not assuming a big collection.

If a player simply doesn't have enough models, consider allowing them to buy "replacements." Our house rule was that you buy any organic troop choice (meaning that nothing was required to "unlock" the unit as a troop) that could only come out of reserves after a similar unit was destroyed.

So, lets say you're playing Space Marines at 4k, but only have four tactical squads and one scout squad. You can buy two "replacement" tactical squads, equipt as you see fit, for the normal price, but not deploy them until the models come off the table.

 Peregrine wrote:
TBH the biggest reason to play Apocalypse above 2000 points is because superheavies eat up a lot of points without taking as many dice to resolve as an equal point value in conventional units. By adding the big guns you significantly cut down on the tedious dice rolling that makes 2000+ point games so little fun.

It also usually brings bigger effect weapons as well, a single Baneblade brings a 10" blast weapon, that can take out up to 4 seperate enemy units in one shot, games speed up when you can bring those really big guns.

A 4000 pt game is pretty much a 2v2 match with each player controlling 2000 pts. Except your "partner" goes on a 3-4 hour smoke break while you move for your army and theirs.

I played a 2v1 5000 pt per side game and it was fun.

I think the problem for some of you that are saying that, for a least a 1v1 game that it would take too long, many of you are still in 5e mindset where it was all about killpoints and tanks. 6e is all about troops and objectives, and at 4000 points you're gonna be seeing a lot of troops, especially from horde armies and IG. For an Apoc game this wouldn't be a problem since you have plenty of Titans/Superheavies/GCs that all have weapons that can and will wipe out entire horde units in one shot.

But in large non-apoc games, you're not gonna have these (usually) so you need to find other means to deal with troops, since in a 4000 point game even a SM player can easily field 60+ troops and/or 30+ terminators. Only one mission in 6e is KP, the rest are objectives, and if neither side brings enough troops, than yes, the game will turn unti a long boring shooting gallery as each side takes pot shots at the olther with what ever vehicles/MCs they have left after they've wiped out each others troops on turn 2. So for a 4000 pt game you're gonna have to bring both a lot more toops AND a lot more anti-troop weapons than you are normally used to.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Only one mission in 6e is KP, the rest are objectives, and if neither side brings enough troops, than yes, the game will turn unti a long boring shooting gallery as each side takes pot shots at the olther with what ever vehicles/MCs they have left after they've wiped out each others troops on turn 2. So for a 4000 pt game you're gonna have to bring both a lot more toops AND a lot more anti-troop weapons than you are normally used to.

The problem is that those people that do have collections large enough for 3,000 points and up tend to do so by taking a few Troops options, then taking all the goodies in the Codex that they'd normally pick'n'mix from for smaller games. In bigger games you have to take everything to hit the points. So when we talk about Apocalypse and not having to worry about the FOC, it wouldn't be too unusual to see... for instance... four Troops units, with half a dozen each of Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support, and about half a dozen Independent Characters plus a retinue or two for HQ units.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Only one mission in 6e is KP, the rest are objectives, and if neither side brings enough troops, than yes, the game will turn unti a long boring shooting gallery as each side takes pot shots at the olther with what ever vehicles/MCs they have left after they've wiped out each others troops on turn 2. So for a 4000 pt game you're gonna have to bring both a lot more toops AND a lot more anti-troop weapons than you are normally used to.

The problem is that those people that do have collections large enough for 3,000 points and up tend to do so by taking a few Troops options, then taking all the goodies in the Codex that they'd normally pick'n'mix from for smaller games. In bigger games you have to take everything to hit the points. So when we talk about Apocalypse and not having to worry about the FOC, it wouldn't be too unusual to see... for instance... four Troops units, with half a dozen each of Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support, and about half a dozen Independent Characters plus a retinue or two for HQ units.

This is why even when I technically have the points, I never like to play games with point values where I end up having too few troops relative to the other slots. If I'm gonna play a 4000 pt game I want enough troops where they're not all gonna be dead by turn 2 and we spend the rest of the game just trying to table each other since when can no longer hold objectives...