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So I'm reading through the new Apocalypse book when I stumbled onto page 40. On the Total Collapse of the Seismic Explosion table, it says that an entire section of the table is removed including anything on it or even partially touching it is removed as well. The empty section them becomes impassable terrain. Now to me, written as is, it would seem skimmers and flyers are affected by this as well. But then right after that it would seem that skimmers and flyers can use it at will with no problems (skimmers should by things that negate dangerous terrain test).

It would make more sense if everything is removed (buildings, terrains, units) except for skimmers and flyers but I feel the interpretation above makes sense when reading as is. What do you guys think?

As a side note, this is an awesome way to destroy a manta that occupies half the table

Nobody will ever use this rule so there's no point in trying to figure out what it does.

It only works for Realm of Battle boards I guess. I don't see much use for that rule outside of tables with clearly delineated and removable sections.

If I recall correctly...skimmers can move over impassable terrain but may not end their move within it. I could be wrong on that, and I'm not sure on flyers at all.

If anything can end its move there, the only practical solution isto leave the board segment in place but mark it off somehow.

Skimmers could pass over it, but landing on it would cause dangerous terrain tests.

I'd love to see this happen - I don't have a ROB table, but it wouldn't be too hard to mark a 2x2ft area with string and blu-tac.

By RAW, everything is removed from the board section, even Skimmers and Flyers. I imagine things like Skimmers would be hit by flying rocks/magma, or the sudden heat interference messes with their anti-grav systems, that sort of thing.

Because there is no table there, there really wouldn't be any way to move over it in subsequent turns (even though it's "Impassable Terrain", it's still also just not there at all).

I'd be willing to house rule it to keep the board section there and play it as regular impassable terrain, and allow flyers/skimmers to remain and move across the section.

I really don't see where you get confused.

It says that all models are removed.
Is a Skimmer a model?
Is a Flyer a model?

 Peregrine wrote:
Nobody will ever use this rule so there's no point in trying to figure out what it does.

Doesn't that apply to almost every thread in YMDC? People asking questions about issues that only happen once a year?
If you don't like the question you can also just alt-F4 this page.

Kangodo wrote:
I really don't see where you get confused.

It's confusing because RAW is utterly stupid. Having flyers auto-killed because the ground underneath them makes about as much sense as the fact that RAW models with helmets can't draw LOS from their eyes and therefore can't ever shoot.

Doesn't that apply to almost every thread in YMDC? People asking questions about issues that only happen once a year?

No, even rare issues have a chance of coming up and it makes sense to prepare for them. This one, on the other hand, will never come up. If anybody ever makes the mistake of not house ruling this idiocy out of the game they're going to ignore it and re-roll the disaster as soon as they realize that actually resolving it means telling the player whose army is on that table section to pack up and go home. It's about as "fun" as a random disaster table result that says "grab a hammer and smash your opponent's most expensive model", and about as likely to ever occur in a real game. Trying to figure out what this one does makes about as much sense as nitpicking whether you choose the most expensive model based on retail price for the kit or count the cost of painting it.

 Peregrine wrote:
No, even rare issues have a chance of coming up and it makes sense to prepare for them. This one, on the other hand, will never come up. If anybody ever makes the mistake of not house ruling this idiocy out of the game they're going to ignore it and re-roll the disaster as soon as they realize that actually resolving it means telling the player whose army is on that table section to pack up and go home. It's about as "fun" as a random disaster table result that says "grab a hammer and smash your opponent's most expensive model"

Almost every apocalypse rule is basically this. "Pack up and bugger off, you didn't bring enough super heavies"

we house ruled that everything on the board takes a dangerous terrain check and fails on a 3-2-1. All surviving models on that board section then fight it out can cannot leave the board space nor be reinforced there.

Last model on the removed section gains their faction 1 VP.

fliers remain in that airspace and can do vector dance if they don't have it already to stay on the board but if they do so, take a dangerous terrain check and have to snap fire unless they already have vector dancer. If they fly off, they crash into the side of the cavern they are now in and suffer a str 10 hit to their front armor with no cover saves or jink allowed. If they survive, they get to reposition themselves to stay on the board but cannot fire that turn.

Kangodo wrote:
I really don't see where you get confused.
It says that all models are removed.
Is a Skimmer a model?
Is a Flyer a model?

Perfectly fine for removing the board initially. I was thinking more of models that move into it since - especially flyers that could be forced into it if they're locked in with their minimum movement.
Now that I've thought about it though, the fact that the board section is supposed to be *REMOVED* outright means you have some new table edges. So no voluntary movement and heading off it if forced means either destruction or ongoing reserves depending on the circumstances.

 Peregrine wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
I really don't see where you get confused.

It's confusing because RAW is utterly stupid. Having flyers auto-killed because the ground underneath them makes about as much sense as the fact that RAW models with helmets can't draw LOS from their eyes and therefore can't ever shoot.

I agree with most people here. Al models on that 2"x2" gets packed up. I just think its weird. The thing I want to dispute is treating it as a board edge afterwards. The rules say to treat that area as impassable terrain. Skimmers (and I'm pretty sure flyers) can be on top of impassable terrain if it is possible to physically place it there (ie: the floor or the table underneath the citadel table). If the impassable terrain can't be used, couldn't they say to treat it as a table edge that can't be used to bring reserves instead, considering that there is a giant hole there?

 Shandara wrote:
It only works for Realm of Battle boards I guess. I don't see much use for that rule outside of tables with clearly delineated and removable sections.

Is it that difficult to measure a 2x2 square?

I find it hard to remove sections by taping them off, yes. Which is what the rule calls for.

Approximating by taping it off, sure that's easy

blood lance wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
No, even rare issues have a chance of coming up and it makes sense to prepare for them. This one, on the other hand, will never come up. If anybody ever makes the mistake of not house ruling this idiocy out of the game they're going to ignore it and re-roll the disaster as soon as they realize that actually resolving it means telling the player whose army is on that table section to pack up and go home. It's about as "fun" as a random disaster table result that says "grab a hammer and smash your opponent's most expensive model"

Almost every apocalypse rule is basically this. "Pack up and bugger off, you didn't bring enough super heavies"

How so? Apocalypse Super Heavies are pretty balanced when you consider their cost. As long as you actually plan ahead, you should have no problem dealing with them.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's confusing because RAW is utterly stupid. Having flyers auto-killed because the ground underneath them makes about as much sense as the fact that RAW models with helmets can't draw LOS from their eyes and therefore can't ever shoot.

If the entire land explodes, a flyer that is only slightly above it will get killed too.
And how else would you write this rule? The entire RoB-plate gets removed.. You can't just let the model stand on 'nothing'.

No, even rare issues have a chance of coming up and it makes sense to prepare for them. This one, on the other hand, will never come up. If anybody ever makes the mistake of not house ruling this idiocy out of the game they're going to ignore it and re-roll the disaster as soon as they realize that actually resolving it means telling the player whose army is on that table section to pack up and go home. It's about as "fun" as a random disaster table result that says "grab a hammer and smash your opponent's most expensive model", and about as likely to ever occur in a real game. Trying to figure out what this one does makes about as much sense as nitpicking whether you choose the most expensive model based on retail price for the kit or count the cost of painting it.

You do know that the rules allow you to pick the Natural Disaster-table you like?
It appears that you do not enjoy this table.
Solution: Don't pick it!

Kangodo wrote:
If the entire land explodes, a flyer that is only slightly above it will get killed too.

It's a collapse. Collapses generally happen in a downward direction. Really the only argument in favor of auto-killing flyers is that you don't have a table to put them on anymore, and that's only a problem if you bought a ROB table and can't just mark off an appropriate area to call "collapsed".

And how else would you write this rule?

I'd remove it from the game entirely. It's a stupid rule.

You do know that the rules allow you to pick the Natural Disaster-table you like?
It appears that you do not enjoy this table.
Solution: Don't pick it!

That's exactly correct. I will not play a game in which this result is possible, whether by my choice or my opponent's choice. It just amazes me that anyone else would willingly play with such an anti-fun rule, and even spend time trying to figure out the precise details of how it works.

Peregrine, why do you persist in Apocalypse threads when you have made it absolutely 100% clear that you do not intend nor wish to play it? YMDC is not the place to air dissatisfaction with a game you do not play. It's a place to talk about rules.

Nobody will ever use this rule so there's no point in trying to figure out what it does.

It's not an option if you use the Space Marine Librarius formation. That's the risk of taking it. It also means it will be seen rather frequently.

It's a collapse. Collapses generally happen in a downward direction. Really the only argument in favor of auto-killing flyers is that you don't have a table to put them on anymore, and that's only a problem if you bought a ROB table and can't just mark off an appropriate area to call "collapsed".

Watch an uncontrolled collapse or demolition and tell me there is no skyward bound debris. The argument in favour of removing flyers is that the rules says to remove all models on that section and flyers are models. That's it.

As for how it play it, you treat it as impassable terrain. It doesn't particularly mater how it's modelled or represented, nothing can end their move over impassable terrain and all normal rules would apply. You do not get new board edges, because you still treat it as terrain. You don't have to even consider the ramifications of there not being a tile there because it essentially IS there but now it's impassable and everything on it died. In the sample battle report they even replaced the tile with one painted up like lava. If you dislike that rule, feel free to house rule it - at the end of the day, Apocalypse is first and foremost about having fun. If you don't find it fun, don't do it.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's a collapse. Collapses generally happen in a downward direction. Really the only argument in favor of auto-killing flyers is that you don't have a table to put them on anymore, and that's only a problem if you bought a ROB table and can't just mark off an appropriate area to call "collapsed".

I haven't been in a Total Collapse caused by a Seismic Explosion and neither have you.
So we don't know what it does to flyers.

I'd remove it from the game entirely. It's a stupid rule.

There are tons of stupid rules, but they are all in the game so we have to deal with it.

That's exactly correct. I will not play a game in which this result is possible, whether by my choice or my opponent's choice. It just amazes me that anyone else would willingly play with such an anti-fun rule, and even spend time trying to figure out the precise details of how it works.

Maybe, just maybe, people have different views of what is fun?
There is nothing wrong with this rule if you are playing 40k vs 40k on 24 RoB's.

Peregrine - debris goes upwards, even when something drops down.

You dont like apocalypse, so dont participate in apocalypse rules threads telling people to not play it. It is counter productive, and adds no value.

Actually, we do know what happens when the air drops out from below an aircraft, the aircraft falls until it gains lift again. Losing all the flyers and skimmers at the moment of the event, yet alwaying other flyers and skimmers to move over it after the event is reasonably exceptable. Personally, I'm just going to fix up a few pieces of 2'x2' felt painted up like lava, because its a game changing effect that deserves to look awesome when it happens!

SJ