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So I currently have a Khador army and I hate it. I fully understand how to play them properly, but getting a couple massive infantry units and taking 10mins simply moving them is the last thing I want to do. As such, I'm starting a new army and this time it needs to be jack heavy. I hear Cygnar has great jack lists and mercs do as well, but I'm really interested in Menoth and would prefer them.

So, are there competitive Menoth lists that run a ton of jacks?

Menoth is probably the best at being jack heavy

I generally agree with Talamare. I have a friend who tends to run between four and six 'jacks with his Menoth army, and it usually runs quite well. That said, from what I've seen it requires a lot of support solos and some support infantry (e.g. the Choir of Menoth) to run that many 'jacks well, but it still requires a lot less massed infantry and such than what you're used to with Khador.

 Talamare wrote:
Menoth is probably the best at being jack heavy

Best at being Jack heavy outside of Cyriss and a few specialized jack casters of other factions.

But yeah, Menoth does Jack support - it's one of our big things. The Choir and a Vassal are seen in the vast majority of lists, and they take our Jacks from kinda Meh to amazingly awesome. We also have a fair bit of focus support that other factions miss out on - Wracks, Reclaimers and the Heirophant can all help share the focus burden, and many of our casters have either high focus or certain spells/tricks that help out with running jacks. We also have the Avatar - a self powering jack with amazing stats, so we can always fit in him as an extra heavy.

That said, most lists still only take a couple of heavies and a light and sometimes the Avatar, but the jacks are 1) more central to our plans usually and 2) able to be expanded pretty easily with most caster. The only thing to remember if you want to go really jack heavy is that we're a slower force, so we generally still like a nice large screening unit up the front, along with our support pieces and a few solos. While we go "jack heavy" we need our infantry support as well to take the brunt of the charges.

The only thing is our most Jack happy caster, Amon Ad-Raza who can take a swarm of jacks, is also one of the trickiest to play who also needs a lot of light jacks (more than you'll ever use with any other caster), so I couldn't recommend him to start with. There's also eFeora - I've seen people run 5 heavies and a light with her before quite effectively.

I honestly don't even consider Cyriss a faction yet, No one I know plays it and its not like I go to tourneys or anything (tho from what I see Tourney players play in batreps on youtube, I think I could probably get in the mid ranks)

But yea, Menoth runs Jacks stupidly well. When I am making a Menoth list I often include 3 Jack's without even realizing it. (Vanq, Repent or BoV and Reck) Sometimes I throw in a Crusader or something to just hang around in case I need it

2-3 Jacks is insanely common, they can easily fit a 4th and Can push a 5th if they really try. The beauty of Menoth Jacks is that most of them usually don't need a ton of Focus until their big turn is happening, and if you're smart you will space out each Jacks big turn or move your caster far far back during it.

Our Support, is incredible. Choir is absolutely ridiculous granting all our jacks +2 attack and damage. That alone is worth about 66% of a boosted attack and damage for free. Not to mention the other narrow but fun "screw you options" that they can provide

Vassal is a god send to a few of our Jacks, easily doubling their effectiveness for a mere 2~4 points

Finally, we have 2 incredible infantry options that are 6pts for 10

This is all good info, thanks. I've been doing some Menoth research and they have way better support than I realized, and it seems like a lot of low point solos can really boost an army's effectiveness. What would be a good starting list?

A good starting list would be something like this.


pKreoss
-Redeemer
-Vanquisher
-Reckoner

Vassal
Covenant of Menoth
Rupert, the Piper of Ord

min Choir
Max Errants with UA

35 points of awesome.


Its a pretty standard Pop'n'drop list.

You have the Choir and Vassal for Jack support.

Errants are one of our best infantry units. They are such a great tool box, even more so when given tough by Rupert. And the Covenant can keep those who pass the tough rolls standing up. And the rest of your army from getting knocked down.

Thanks for the list help. How does Reznik play? He looks pretty interesting to me

 phxlord Eldrad wrote:
Thanks for the list help. How does Reznik play? He looks pretty interesting to me

I'm not a Reznik player myself (More a Sevvy/Kreoss type of guy), he can play very super solo-y (extremely strong in combat and somewhat selfish with their focus). God help you if you're playing against Reznik, have an upkeep on your caster and a clear charge lane, as Reznik will annihilate them.


OTOH, with both Iron Agression and Witch Hound he's very good with 'Jacks too. The list I've seen people run locally typically involve a lot of heavies with a combination of support for him and for his 'Jacks. Hierophant for focus efficiency (Reznik only has 6) is a must.

Drawbacks are that his medium base make him harder to screen w/o heavy infantry (which he does nothing to boost), and his focus is only 6 and he wants to use a lot of that on himself. His defense stat is also a touch low (armor is good) for a non-Troll/non-Tough melee centric caster.

 phxlord Eldrad wrote:
Thanks for the list help. How does Reznik play? He looks pretty interesting to me

Reznik is a 'Jack-Centric caster that wants to push his machines (but only very rarely himself), aggressively. He is a high-risk caster as like most protectorate casters he can't really camp much as he wants to be spending 2 (upkeep Iron Agression & Ignite), and Allocating 3. Leaving him with only 1 Focus.. even this might get spent if you're running Wracks/Heirophant to enable perdition."

Generally speaking Reznik can really only run 1 'Jack off his focus pool, wants more than that because of Witch Hound. Basically if you've got 3+ 'Jacks you don't have to worry about using Hymn of Shielding this because Hymn of Shield generally reads "You can't target my 'Jacks with Spells" while witch hound with a large enough battle group to always have an effective move out of it reads "Target my 'Jacks with a spell; lose the game" . This means while against a canny opponent you'll rarely if ever get a witch hound trigger, it's basically giving you functional immunity to targeted spells.

Add that together with his limited focus pool and you'll want something to offload the burden of your 2nd big 'Jack like using a Sanctifier or Reclaimer. You'll want your other choices to be things that don't really want focus.. a Vanquisher or Pair of Repenters.

You'll look at Engine of Destruction, his pretty boss offensive stats, and feat and think "Personal Assination".. he is a bit too slow and clunky for that. Seriously his threat range is 3"+5"+2"+2" = 12". This means even FOCUS/FURY 6 casters can safely measure his threat range and stay just a teensy hair out of it. The only time he'll get a viable bead on a caster is when your opponent gets sloppy, you've already basically won on attrition.

Also he doesn't support Infantry terrible well as he has no Defensive Buffs or speed bumps for them. This means menite classics like Exemplars (of all stripes) are something of a trap with. Only advance him as far as you need to allocate to your front line, and try keep the big ranged threats tied up.

I'd start a basic Reznik list looking something like this:

Reznik
-Reckoner/Templar
-Sanctifier
-Vanquisher or 2 Repenters
Min Choir
Vassal
Vassal
Max TFG -or- Max Zealots + UA

This clocks in at between 31-33pts. Leaving your room to adjust things to your personal taste. Throw in some merc solos, or the covenant, maybe max out the choir or add the TFG UA... really it's flexible.

It's fairly efficient. You fuel one 'Jack off his main pool, the Sanctifier feeds off the chumps in front of him. A Reckoner is already the best 'Jack pt-for-pt in in the game, charging for free it's even better. The Templar is tough and beat back gives it crazy good angles of attack, the effective +1 attack and sure-fire hits from boosted attack rolls help it a ton.

It's worth nothing that at 3d6+8, that your beater has with Iron Aggression & Choir Buff means high def really becomes unreliable for your opponent. Anything below DEF 16 is basically auto-hit territory, even DEF 17 is nailed 75% of the time.

A Sanctifier with Ignite on is P+S 21 under the choir buff.

The Avatar can also be a cute option with him, as he can use Iron Agression or Ignite on it. However since it's not a part of his battle group it reduces the amount your opponent has to fear trying to use spells on you. It doesn't weigh him down though and can be nice at 50pts.

Reznik can be a good caster, but he's not an easy caster to learn. Especially if you are not familiar with the general Menoth playstyle of synergistic support.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Reznik can be a good caster, but he's not an easy caster to learn. Especially if you are not familiar with the general Menoth playstyle of synergistic support.

He's not so much hard to play as he is easy to walk into a trap with.

He's so strong in melee, and strips off Focus/Fury! I'll use him as an assassin! 12" Threat Range. Predictable, easy to avoid. No defensive tricks to stay that far up field.
He's on a medium base! I'll bring bastions to block LOS! No speed buff, no defensive buff. You just spent 8pts on a bunch of SPD4 ARM 16 bodies that will get Alpha'd off the table.
He's a 'Jack caster! I'll bring a whole buch of Crusaders/Reckoners/Whatever. Oh, he can only really fuel 1 on his own.

So long as you respect his limitations at the list building stage, and go in with a realistic plan the only major skill to learn with reznik is placing his fat ass where it won't get shot to death. If you play against melee centric lists, even that may not be a problem.

He's certainly no pSevvy in terms of being easy to run, but he's hardly a Harbinger or eSevvy in terms of learning curve.

Remember to buy Wracks if you are playing Reznik

Its important to have some for when you Assassinate the enemy's caster


Nothing better than Crucifying eHaley

I really enjoy Reznik - he's aggressive and fun, and you can guarantee that it'll be a short and brutal game, whichever way it goes. Plus, I once had him solo one-round a Colossal, which is always a great story

I agree it's easy to over extend with Reznik, he can get himself into a trap on occasion while trying to set up an assassination or if you try to use him like a heavy jack (he might hit like one, but it's still not a good idea unless you can absolutely protect him afterwards), but I wouldn't say he's a tricky caster to learn or difficult for beginners. Not a power player like the Harbinger or eFeora, certainly, but solid.

He generally runs a couple of heavies, but he also works very well with the Avatar - remember that Iron Aggression isn't battlegroup only, and makes the Avatar even more of a powerhouse. At any rate, I find two heavies and a light in his battle group isn't too much of a burden for him with Wracks, for me it's usually a Vanquisher, Reckoner and Repenter and with Iron Agression on the Reckoner, it runs pretty smoothly (the other two are usually pretty focus light anyway). Perdition is a want more than a need, and needs to be used with caution. If you really want it to go off it costs 4 focus, which is hard to justify except when you're certain of an assassination. However, if you get a knocked down or very low def target of opportunity without out too high an ARM, you can risk an unboosted Perdition if it'll get your jack somewhere useful - but it's an opportunity thing, not something you plan around.

Chongara wrote:

 phxlord Eldrad wrote:
Thanks for the list help. How does Reznik play? He looks pretty interesting to me

You'll look at Engine of Destruction, his pretty boss offensive stats, and feat and think "Personal Assination". he is a bit too slow and clunky for that. Seriously his threat range is 3"+5"+2"+2" = 12". This means even FOCUS/FURY 6 casters can safely measure his threat range and stay just a teensy hair out of it. The only time he'll get a viable bead on a caster is when your opponent gets sloppy, you've already basically won on attrition.

Last time someone tried staying half an inch out of Rezniks threat range with me, I had a jack walk behind Reznik and use the Push power attack One more Wracked heretic.

And while his base threat range is pretty predictable, you can also throw in Madelyn Corbeu for an extra 3" threat range, or Saxon Orrik for Pathfinder - it helps him project a lot more threat.

I've just picked up the basic kit, thanks for all the help. With all this great advice hopefully I won't shame Menoth as badly as Khador haha

Difficult terrain give Menoth 'jack forces the fits. Mind it.

 malfred wrote:
Difficult terrain give Menoth 'jack forces the fits. Mind it.

What? I'm pretty sure I heard the opposite from PhatAsian

Joking aside, yeah...make sure you have a way to get reznik pathfinder. IIRC Saxon works for us

BTNeophyte wrote:

 malfred wrote:
Difficult terrain give Menoth 'jack forces the fits. Mind it.

What? I'm pretty sure I heard the opposite from PhatAsian

Joking aside, yeah...make sure you have a way to get reznik pathfinder. IIRC Saxon works for us

Yep. Just doesn't work on the 'jacks.

I think this is why Phatasian's more gun-liney 'jack loadout has become the norm, or at least
it helped make it more the norm. You rely on Warjacks with movement bonuses or reach or
bother (Reckoner, Avatar) or really cheap beatsticks (Dervishes , Crusader) or you shoot
things (Vanquisher, Redeemer, Double Reckoner)

Or you bring Amon for Mobility.

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or you bring Amon for Mobility.

Um, yeah. You do that, lol.

He has some amazing one off turns.

Too often, though, he doesn't have either the alpha strike capability to break
you or the defensive stats to stay alive.