Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Looking to play one of my Tau buddies in the next little while here. Since I started playing WH40K, I've played and lost badly against him twice. I KNOW he tailors his list against me, so tailoring back is fair game.
He'll be running something along the lines of Shadowsun with crisis suits, 2x Riptide, ~3 5-10 units of fire warriors, and ~2 sniper teams.

But more to the point, I'm hoping to learn how to play against gunlines in general, since I don't have enough experience to figure it out comfortably.

First thought:

HQ - DP of Khorne, Armour, Wings, AoBF. 255pts
Huron. 160pts

Troops - 10x Cultists w/Stubber. 55pts
14x Cultists w/Stubber. 71 pts

Fast Attack - Warp Talons, MoN. 180pts
Warp Talons, MoN. 180pts
4x Chaos Spawn. 120pts

Heavy Support - Obliterator, MoN. 76pts
Obliterator, MoN. 76pts
Obliterator, MoN. 76pts

Everything starts on the table. The thought is to infiltrate the warp talons to ensure they get in on turn 2, but I don't have any idea how to fit Huron himself into this and feel a little silly infiltrating fast attack units. So my other thoughts are to swap him with either a biker lord inserted via spawn, or... something better?
He likely assumes I'll field my Heldrake, but with his access to interceptor I'm not really feeling like humouring him. I could pull the oblits and pop in 2 units of CC kitted CSM in Rhinos for some extra push, maybe?

Instead of Khorne and AoBF on your DP, try Nurgle and the Black Mace. You already punch through armor being a DP, and the mace can help sweep big squads of tau.

Huron is not doing much of anything for your list, I would suggest you do use the bike lord with a lightning claw and possibly power fist, but against tau two claws is probably fine. Mark of nurgle would also be good for the lord and the spawn.

Your troops are a bit fragile, be careful with them.

Warp talons are bad....they just suck. Any decent gunline can shoot them down, and yes they can blind tau easily but you have to risk deep striking close. Even through a BS1 shooting phase and overwatch you are looking at taking losses.

The spawn would benefit well from a mark. Combined with the bike lord and the prince rushing up something will get to your opponent.

Single oblits are not that awesome, but not bad. They can do serious damage, or get killed outright.

Plague marines or chosen with lots of plasma guns will help bring down those Riptides. Does he take missile drones with the Riptides? Its rather amusing if you can force enough Ld tests killing them, and get them to run off the board.

If you like the idea of using the jump infantry to get into combat and kill things, then raptors are much better warp talons. They are cheaper can shoot and can take a special weapons for some tank busting or personnel shredding.

If you like the idea of using Huron, outflank some of these guys in a rhino . Worse case he intercepts your rhino full of (potentially) fearless troops.

My concern is that he will have skyfire on his Riptides and drop that DP to the ground. and then ID him with an S10 tank or something.

I'm absolutely not an expert, so feel free to ignore my advice. However, if I were you I would swap the warp talons for chaos bikers, for 10 point less you can have the same number of bikers with Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of Excess which are a lot tougher and can also kill from distance with their cool twin-linked boltguns. Add a couple of meltaguns and they'll also be able to bring down tanks and MCs. Yes, they do not have the sheer damage output that 5 pairs of lightning claws can offer, but against Tau I feel that bikers are more than enough in CC to kill his troops.

Honestly I can't see what good can do 2 units of cultists against a gunline army. If you just want them to sit on objectives... well, I feel that he will be able to kill them all effortlessly. I'd suggest a Lord with MoN or MoS and a couple of Plague Marines or Noise Marines with Icon of Excess. The Noise Marines would be better, as with the blastmaster you can protect your objectives with a tough troop while dealing some damage from 48" away, to support your charging units.

I feel that 3 obliterators at 1250 points could be a bit too much, but that really depends on his list, so you could save points there, if you need them.

I fought tau once, but he did not use a riptide so my advice will have very little weight.

He deployed many infiltrators to break my gun line and he took haywire grenades to glance my land raider to destruction.

I think a Blood Angles alpha strike would do very well against Tau. However, we are Chaos! Not blood thirsty vampires! Although we are still very blood thirsty.

DP of Tz, Wings, Armor, Black Mace-265
Just drop Huron

Cultist+14=106

CSM+5, 2 meltaguns, trade all bolters for ccw, rhino, dirge castor-200

Raptors, 2 flamers-105 (ds behind cover, then move in to use flamers and charge the turn after)
Raptors, 2 flamers-105
Spawns+3, MoN-144 (I need help with this one fellows, is MoN better than MoT since tau guns are S5 or S6?)

Predator-75 (make a AV13 wall and move in)
Predator-75
Predator-75

total=1150

Maybe add 100pts of raptors or side heavy bolters/ lc for the preds

Or try infiltration

Huron-160 (infiltrate the CSM first, him and cultist 2nd and luckly raptors)

CSM+15, MoS, 2 Meltaguns, trade all bolters for ccw, IoE-360
Cultist+14=106 (put Huron here to give them fearless)

Cultitst-50 (home obj holder)

Raptors+10, 2 meltaguns, MoS, IoE-345

Oblits, MoN-76 (DS in and use HF, assault cannons, any mid to short range guns while marching closer)
Oblits, MoN-76
Oblits, MoN-76

total=1249

This list is the closest to BA alpha strike since Chaos dont have drop pods.

Filch, as usual I like your input. Enjoying the feel of your infiltration list with the blobs of FNP, shall try a variant of that with bolters AND adding CCWs on the CSM.

Diablix, yeah realizing that most basic Chaos units can out-CC Tau no probs. And you're right, 2 little units of cultists are no good for anything. Still wavering on swapping one of the oblits, but feel that more cultists (which is likely what I'd be able to squeeze in) isn't worth it.

General Duf, I don't recall him using drones with the 'tides but will definitely keep the LD tests in mind! Not really feeling the outflank though, he'll have plenty of interceptor. Agreed, after due consideration dropping out the DP.

Dr. Serling, the idea with AoBF was the +2 str would help vs riptides. Cheers for the tip on Warp Talons, too bad 'cause they seem awesome as hell.

What are everyone's thoughts on using Armour? I've got a couple Helbrutes which I've had success with as ranged firing platforms, a forge fiend, and several rhinos.

Due to the unfortunate wording of Infiltrate, you need to burn an infiltrate on Huron so he can infiltrate. I don't have a rule book on me at the moment, but it is something to the effect of 'an IC without Infiltrate cannot join a group of infiltrators during deployment'. If someone has a rulebook handy can you verify the wording and such for me? If don't feel like paying for NM, use CSM in rhinos and infiltrate the rhinos ( I believe you do this) with the guys inside. Turn 1 drive 6"forward, dump marines out, and you are now in rapid fire range with bolters, and likely charge range next turn. There is a high potential of giving up FB this way but it might be worth it if you can get 2 or 3 10-man units in there half to start the game.

MoN would be better on spawns, and yesTau are typically s5+ weapons. The problem with vehicles vs Tau is that damned railgun on their hammerheads. Every time I bring vehicles against Tau it sets a new record for quickest smoldering heap. If they pen, its like a 50% chance to just explode, and they only need a 2 for a rhino or 3 for a Forgefiend to pen. If you bring vehicles, bring several of them so you aren't just wasting points to bring a crater.

Sorry if I sound like I am flip flopping here, but if you plan to bring vehicles, and can still fit that DP, do it. Give him so many high priority targets he can't possibly kill them all in a turn or 2. If your opponent doesn't mind, rather than a forgefiend, run it as a maulerfiend. Try and find some other big target they will need to kill, possibly a helbrute or 2, and advance those with the DP and the maulerfiend. Some of those will get through and have a chance to drop the Riptides or tanks, etc. I wouldn't necessarily go toe to Tau (sorry couldn't resist) with the DP vs Riptide. If he decides to smash, it could mean a quick end for the DP. I highly recommend rolling on Biomancy if you give DP psyker powers.

I will try to put together a list for this idea after work.

You, sir, are totally correct.
p.38 "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."
...Poop.

What about infiltrating CSM if 1, CSM & Raptors if 2, and CSM & Cultists & Huron if 3 (relying on raptor's speed?)

Pretty sure he doesn't have/isn't fielding a hammerhead, and I'm in the process of magnetizing my forgefiend/maulerfiend so no worries on that count.

So you're suggesting something like this, yes?

HQ
Daemon Prince - Nurgle(???), Armour, Wings, Black Mace

Troops
CSM x7, Chainaxe, Rhino
CSM x7, Chainaxe, Rhino
CSM x7, Chainaxe, Rhino

Elites
Helbrute, reaper autocannon
Helbrute

Fast Attack
Chaos Spawn x4
Raptors x5, Chainaxe

Heavy Support
Maulerfiend (w/magma)
=1250pts

If I ditch a helbrute, I can give the DP Psyker 2 & spell familiar, add 2 marines, and give each aspiring champ a combi-bolter. Considering the sad range on a multi-melta I may do that. And with this list there's no infiltration unless I get lucky and roll it on the CSM Warlord Traits table which I'll probably not use (DP has fear, hatred and preferred enemy won't benefit, and DP doesn't get boons).

Yes I was thinking something along those lines. Unfortunately you will be taking a lot of fire for the first two turns and firing almost none back. If you don't like that style, then by all means play what you are comfortable with instead of chasing the Tau across the board.

As a Daemon of [any particular variety] you need to roll at least one power on the psyker chart of that diety. But Nurgle's aren't terrible. I might find a few points to add dirge casters to the rhinos to help with the fire support rule the Tau now have.




EDIT

I have really been toiling over this and I am concerned about model counts and such. If you set up the long way (long edges are on the left and right) it will be a very long game for you. Do you have any LR's by chance or might be able to borrow some?
Again sorry if I am all over the place. I just don't want someone to have a bad time and get tabled on my account. I take this serious, and I'd hate to be the cause of it.

@General Duf;
I haven't tried a CC-based force like this before, and am eager to see how it plays. I've only been playing 40K for ~3 months, so I'm still getting a feel for my army and for the game itself. Need to try new things to learn what I like! Every piece of advice and help I get on these forums I look at as just that; an outside opinion on a question I asked. If I decide to play this list or variations thereof it's entirely on me. Not you. I'm able and willing to mess with the lists until it's at a point I'm comfortable with, and I'm the one choosing to run them. As an added note, this is a friendly game so no pressure on it there. We're likely going to be on a 4'x4' table.
I totally appreciate your concern, amigo, and more to the point I am thankful for your help thus far
Besides, didn't manage to table me last time and that was way before I had any idea what I was doing, now I know both my enemy and myself!

So I decided to drop not only one, but both helbrutes. This allowed me to fit in a second Maulerfiend (intended to help tie up the riptides), 2 psyker levels on the DP and a few other bits and pieces. Went over the list of Daemon options and stuck with Tzeentch. The save rerolls and both the boon and beam powers are worth it, especially compared to Shrouded when you've already got a 5++. Second power is being pulled from Biomancy. This should enable me to get either a blessing or a witchfire from Tzeentch, as well as hopefully a blessing from Biomancy.
The ONLY thing I'm uncomfortable with in this list is the low numbers of CSM troops. Is that what you meant by model count?

Also, the game was supposed to be played tonight but got postponed until thursday. Will let you know how it goes!

Yeah. If they get caught in the open for too long, they will get shot up pretty bad. Thats why I was inquiring about Land Raiders so they don't have to wait a turn to assault after disembarking.

A second maulerfiend will definitely help preoccupy those riptides.

Had that match today. Went in expecting to get tabled as he told me about the new list he'd brought, his expectations were also that he'd win hands down.

The game somehow went well, though, even though he basically didn't field a damn thing I expected him to. I ended up fielding the DP, three rhinos with 6, 6, and 7 CSM and a single dirge caster on the 7, a unit of 3 spawn and a unit of 4, and 2 maulerfiends. He was running some new Farsight Enclave add-on book for Tau (?). Two sets of 3 crisis suits, one sniper team w/markerlights, a hammerhead, a juiced-up riptide, a piranha, and a broadside rigged for skyfire.

He went first, failed to kill anything due to a combo of good terrain placement, night-fighting, and invul saves. Only taking a wound off the spawn and two rhino hull points. I got my DP up in his grill, fired off Doombolt of Tzeentch fame (also rolled Iron Arm) to kill the broadside and put a wound on half the crisis suits. The 3 spawn and one of the maulers rushed the piranha and blew it to smithereens.
Turn two he focus fired my spawn out of existence. I retaliated by shooting half the snipers with the CSM from an immobilized rhino, taking out a crisis suit with the DP's beam. Moved two of the rhinos up, the dirge caster into 6" of the riptide/crisis suits and the sniper team. DP and Maulerfiend charged the suits, but only took out a single suit and missile/shield drone due to them being spread out. On his init he moved up, Smashed my maulerfiend, but as it only had one wound left I won the combat. He failed his initiative for "hit & run", failed his leadership and fell back straight off the board.
Turn three he put another couple wounds out on the remaining maulerfiend and one on the DP, separated his HQ from his remaining crisis suits. By this point he only had ~8 models left, whereas I'd only lost 7 spawn and a maulerfiend. Using the rhino with the dirge caster, I tank shocked the last three crisis suits off the board (another botched leadership roll by him). His HQ, Farsight or someone, got caught in the tank shock too. Decided to Death or Glory with his nice sword, landed his wound, and rolled for weapon broken. The only penetrating his that WOULDN'T stop the tank shock. Going by the trend, he also failed his leadership and launched himself off the board. I finally dropped the CSM from my 2nd rhino, finished off the snipers.

Tabled his Tau force by the bottom of turn 3.
That felt GOOD!

MVP of the show was definitely the single 40pt Rhino that tank shocked three crisis suits and his HQ out of existence. As far as which units I felt contributed the most (ridiculous dice shenanigans aside), probably the Chaos Spawn for soaking up two full turns of plasma and missile fire, and the maulerfiends for wrecking his calm and all his armour. Didn't even need to disembark 2/3 of my units of CSM.

So I thank you, gentlemen, for your contributions to this win.
All hail Chaos!