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How Should I run this 1850 pts list?

Should I put kharn with the Cultist or in the LR with berserkers?

HQ (160pts)

Kharn the Betrayer (160pts)

Elites (259pts)

Chaos Terminators (259pts)
Icon of Vengeance (25pts), Reaper Autocannon (25pts), Terminator (31pts)
Terminator (36pts)
Combi-melta, -flamer, -plasma (5pts)
Terminator (36pts)
Combi-melta, -flamer, -plasma (5pts)
Terminator (36pts)
Combi-melta, -flamer, -plasma (5pts)
Terminator Champion (70pts)
Chainfist (27pts), Gift of Mutation (10pts), Power Weapon

Troops (572pts)

Chaos Cultists (165pts)
Champion's upgrade (10pts), 3x Flamer (15pts), 35x Squad models (champion included) (140pts)

Chaos Cultists (165pts)
Champion's upgrade (10pts), 3x Flamer (15pts), 35x Squad models (champion included) (140pts)

Khorne Berzerkers (Troops) (242pts)
9x Chain Axe (27pts), 9x Khorne Berzerker (171pts)
Berzerker Champion (44pts)
Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon (15pts)

Fast Attack (170pts)

Heldrake (170pts)


Heavy Support (691pts)

Chaos Land Raider (235pts)
Dirge caster (5pts)

Obliterators (228pts)
Mark of Nurgle (18pts), 3x Obliterator (210pts)

Obliterators (228pts)
Mark of Nurgle (18pts), 3x Obliterator (210pts)

Kharn should go in the land raider.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Kharn should go in the land raider.

When he starts chopping the berserkers up its gonna be nasty...

and he confer fearless to the cultist too. and re-roll to hit.

He'll be better off in the Land Raider with the Berserkers. No use using an expensive model to end up being in a soft unit like that.

And try to avoid posting individual upgrade points values. We can get in trouble for that.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
He'll be better off in the Land Raider with the Berserkers. No use using an expensive model to end up being in a soft unit like that.

And try to avoid posting individual upgrade points values. We can get in trouble for that.

I didnt know that. Thanks for the heads up.

Cultists hands down. He is the finisher. LR dumps the berserkers off turn 2 and turn 3 kharn and his 35 extra wounds + hate + furious charge = blood 4 the blood god shoe up to close the deal.

Umm... this list doesn't seem to have a theme to it. Kind of a take-one-of-stuff-and-hope kind of thing...

I guess your best bet would be to have most games where the obliterators hang out in reserves along with the terminators and put the berzerkers in the raider, and kharn with the cultists and have everybody rush forwards as fast as possible. Then turns 2 and 3, the deepstriking stuff shows up behind your opponent's stuff and everything else shows up from the front, and you squish everything like a sandwich made of violence instead of bread.

 Ailaros wrote:
Umm... this list doesn't seem to have a theme to it. Kind of a take-one-of-stuff-and-hope kind of thing...

I guess your best bet would be to have most games where the obliterators hang out in reserves along with the terminators and put the berzerkers in the raider, and kharn with the cultists and have everybody rush forwards as fast as possible. Then turns 2 and 3, the deepstriking stuff shows up behind your opponent's stuff and everything else shows up from the front, and you squish everything like a sandwich made of violence instead of bread.

Was trying to run a more balanced theme.

Anyway I tried this out today. Went against eldar and dark eldar. Got tabled by turn 3.

Of course we made some chnages to the points.

I had to removed my LR and 1 obliterator.

But yeah other than that. Everything is the same. He had an avatar of khaine and some eldar jetbike unit. Took heavy casualty from that.

Yeah that's not surprising. You're confusing "balanced" and "unfocused". Without a modus operandi, your list is going to struggle. Trying to force one onto a random assortment of models is going to be tricky.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah that's not surprising. You're confusing "balanced" and "unfocused". Without a modus operandi, your list is going to struggle. Trying to force one onto a random assortment of models is going to be tricky.

Please elaborate. I would like to hear more.

Lists work best when there is a single kind of thing that they do. Not that every unit is the same, of course, but that the army as a whole plays cohesively towards achieving one kind of goal in one kind of way, where everything supports the style.

One reason for this is because said lists are much more durable. If everything in my army is good in close combat, for example, then there is no way you can prevent me from getting into close combat, and me being good in it. Nothing short of tabling my whole army will remove that threat. If, on the other hand, you only bring a single unit that's terribly good in close combat, and your opponent is afraid of it, it will be much, MUCH easier for your opponent to just kill that one unit, and the thing you brought that was most threatening to him is gone, with nothing to back it up. Around here, we call this "redundancy", but to be more precise you can think about it as strategy insurance. Whatever your strategy is, you should be able to have many units being useful to achieve that goal or play style. With one of a bunch of everything, you're attacking your opponent in strategic piecemeal. They can just handle the most threatening things as they arise, and you'll be defanged, and powerless to stop your opponent.

Secondly, lists that are more straightforward are much, much stronger than lists that are very complex. As mentioned above, a single bout of casualties can take one a one-and-only unit, and if something else was relying on that one unit, now they're in trouble as well. Your whole plan can fall over like a string of dominoes. The more complex your plan, the better of a player you need to be to simply control it, much less excel with it, and the better your opponents are, the easier of a time they're going to have throwing in that one monkey wrench into the gears at just the right time. Complexity breeds mistakes, and having to repair a complex system on the go as it's actively being destroyed by another player becomes much less possible very quickly as a list gets more complex.

More focused lists also make a stronger weapon as well. Having to think about which unit is slightly better because it does one thing in one way, or something else that does the same thing in a different way, or something that does something else in the same way, or something that does...

... and now you just got wiped out by khorne berzerkers or a fleet of nob bikers. With sturdy, straightforward lists, you can take the initiative and, because they're durable enough, can keep on going with your plan, regardless of casualties or what your opponent is doing. You fight the game on your terms because you don't have obvious weaknesses that your opponent can exploit in your overcomplicated lists with their overcomplicated playstyles. The more you can force your opponent to react to you, rather than getting to do their own thing, the better things will be for you. You don't have that kind of strength with an unfocused list.

The strongest lists are ones that are built around having a variety of killing power (enough weapons to handle MCs, and vehicles, and hordes, etc.), but to have it on as few different kinds of units that all more or less behave in the same way.

You're talking about a chaos list here, so I'll show you my 1850 CSM list that I brought to my last game:

Huron
Lord - MoK, sigil, vets, axe of blind fury

10x terminators - MoK, IoW, 3x c.plasma, 3x c.melta, 2x autocannons, chainfist, powerfist

20x khorne berzerkers - IoW, powerfist
20x khorne berzerkers - IoW, powerfist

3x Obliterators - MoK

... my whole list can take apart anything in close combat, and my whole list can either deepstrike or infiltrate (depending on how huron rolls), meaning that my army is all in close combat range turn 2. The strategy is that I pound your face and go for the table or win on secondaries. Everything in my army is bent towards this one purpose, and it all goes about it in pretty much the same way.

There's no "well, maybe if I just kill one of his units, his plan will fall apart". There's no "I'll just start by killing the most threatening thing". There's no "I'm going to have a plan so complex, there's no way he'll stop me". Against a list this focused, you're playing the game on my terms until I lose my last model.

That's what bringing a focused list does. Bringing an unfocused list isn't more balanced, it's just more crappy.