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I have not seen this discussed previously. Is the Farsight Bomb illegal, RAW?

Pg 38 clearly states that "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."

Shadowsun confers the Infiltrate special rule to the Bodyguard unit making them Infiltrators, they must "deploy last after all other units(friend or foe) have been deployed."

Farsight as an IC cannot join his bodyguard unit if Shadowsun is present.

Even if you attempt to create an order of operations to circumvent this it is clear, that when deploying infiltrators, whether onboard or in reserves is against RAW. Even Deepstriking is deployment forcing Farsight to be deployed with a unit if Infiltrators, strictly against RAW.

Lets see some others weigh in on this issue.

I don't have the new Tau codex, but if the rules are as you have laid out, then yes, it's the same problem that we've had with Captain Shrike since the start of 5th edition.


GW FAQd this towards the end of 5th, changing the IC rules so that they could join units prior to deployment... but then in the 6th edition rulebook they for some inexplicable reason reverted back to the 'join on deployment' setup.

No idea why they haven't erratad this so far, and even less idea why they would perpetuate this little piece of stupid in a new codex when it is a great gaping hole in the rules that they are clearly well aware of.

had this argument with Shadowsun joining a riptide making it an infiltrator

the rules do seem to allow it but then i havent seen any arguments otherwise

The rules do NOT allow it. You cannot join (page 39) a unit unless you are deployed in coherency with it. So for Shadowsun to join the Tide it is on the table already - hich cannot be during the Infiltrate step, as it doesnt yet have the rule

Farsight bomb isnt illegal if you deepstrike. He does not scatter if he is your warlord, taking shadowsun at all is optional and most people dont like her in it for both fluff and effectiveness (with all the ignores cover stuff nowdays anyway)

Note that at the end of that paragraph it states "...cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment" not units with the rule as a whole. Infiltrators (-or not -er) usually refers to the actual act. Theres a crapton of other tactics that would be illegal if he couldnt join them PERIOD whether they were infiltrating or not, since not just the tau have infiltrating units you might want to slap an HQ in there so now the HQ has outflank (which does confer over).

Cant even begin to count the number of tactics that are illegal if what you say is true. Tactics that noone has ever brought up before as being illegal.

Hell, the ork FAQ actually specifically mentions what happens when an HQ (bikerboss in the example) joins a Kommando group with Snikrot. Kommandos have infiltrate by default, Snikrot does his own thing thats neither outflank nor infiltrate. Quoted below:

Q: If an Independent Character on a warbike joins Snikrot’s unit
before the game starts, can they still turn up using the Ambush special
rule? (p62)
A: Yes.

How could he even join the unit, since they still have the Infiltrate rule?

taking shadowsun at all is optional and most people dont like her in it for both fluff and effectiveness (with all the ignores cover stuff nowdays anyway)

For fluff Shadowsun should not be taken. But for effectiveness she is mandatory. It is the 2+ cover save that makes the unit so difficult to deal with. Ignores cover is not as prevalent as you suggest and the bomb just targets those units first...

As for the debate no you can't infiltrate with Shadowsun. But yes you can join Farsight to the unit. It is units that are infiltrating that you can't attach non-inflitrating ICs to.

The problem with deepstriking Shadowsun and Farsight is that they enter reserves as infiltrators. You do not have to declare that they are in reserves until after both your and your opponent's normall deployment. Farsight cannot be reserved in a unit of infiltrators as he would not be able to be reserved with them unless he also was being granted the Infiltrate special rule and being deployed after normal deployment as well. No choice about deploying and declaring infiltrators last after normal deployment sans Farsight.

Granted, many people may be using illegal combinations, or as the Ork FAQ states(wasn't aware of this), or that don't seem legal. As written RAW, the Farsight bomb is illegal. Just some food for thought for the guys smashing face with it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Farsight bomb isnt illegal if you deepstrike. He does not scatter if he is your warlord, taking shadowsun at all is optional and most people dont like her in it for both fluff and effectiveness (with all the ignores cover stuff nowdays anyway)

Note that at the end of that paragraph it states "...cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment" not units with the rule as a whole. Infiltrators (-or not -er) usually refers to the actual act. Theres a crapton of other tactics that would be illegal if he couldnt join them PERIOD whether they were infiltrating or not, since not just the tau have infiltrating units you might want to slap an HQ in there so now the HQ has outflank (which does confer over).

Infiltrators don't have a choice - they don't have the option to deploy normally.

As to the Ork FAQ....

They seem to have gotten it wrong, its an illegal attachment for an IC, no ambiguity there. But, due to that oversight it is legal for an Ork IC on a Warbike to join a unit granted Infilrate, that instead chooses to simply be reserved. Then benefits from Ambush.

Odd, and counter to the rules, but it has been explicitly allowed in this instance despite the unit having Infiltrate and is an exception to the IC rules for joining Infiltrators.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Farsight bomb isnt illegal if you deepstrike. He does not scatter if he is your warlord, taking shadowsun at all is optional and most people dont like her in it for both fluff and effectiveness (with all the ignores cover stuff nowdays anyway)

Note that at the end of that paragraph it states "...cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment" not units with the rule as a whole. Infiltrators (-or not -er) usually refers to the actual act. Theres a crapton of other tactics that would be illegal if he couldnt join them PERIOD whether they were infiltrating or not, since not just the tau have infiltrating units you might want to slap an HQ in there so now the HQ has outflank (which does confer over).

Infiltrators don't have a choice - they don't have the option to deploy normally.

Er what? Page number please.

 Krellnus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Farsight bomb isnt illegal if you deepstrike. He does not scatter if he is your warlord, taking shadowsun at all is optional and most people dont like her in it for both fluff and effectiveness (with all the ignores cover stuff nowdays anyway)

Note that at the end of that paragraph it states "...cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment" not units with the rule as a whole. Infiltrators (-or not -er) usually refers to the actual act. Theres a crapton of other tactics that would be illegal if he couldnt join them PERIOD whether they were infiltrating or not, since not just the tau have infiltrating units you might want to slap an HQ in there so now the HQ has outflank (which does confer over).

Infiltrators don't have a choice - they don't have the option to deploy normally.

Er what? Page number please.

It is just under infiltrate page 38, it is the fact that there is no "may" there. Infiltrators have to be deployed last.

Page 38 infiltrate special rule. Notice the lack of may or choose wording.

Looks like most agree, Farsight bomb is not supported in the rules, but falls into a large hole in the rules which GW has chosen not to fill nor clarify.

I wonder if anyone has challenged the Farsight bomb in a tournament setting, I've seen a bunch of chatter about them being used with much success, but it would appear that such a use is not legal.

Correct me if I'm wrong but could you "infiltrate" Shadowsun into deployment with the farsight bomb?

Deploy Farsight and the bomb normally in your deployment zone. Then during infiltration you deploy shadowsun within 2" of the unit making her join the unit per the rules saying that deploying in coherency means you're attached to the squad. The unit would then not have the infiltrate ability thus negating the requirement that Farsight couldn't join it.

Or am I missing something.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but could you "infiltrate" Shadowsun into deployment with the farsight bomb?

Deploy Farsight and the bomb normally in your deployment zone. Then during infiltration you deploy shadowsun within 2" of the unit making her join the unit per the rules saying that deploying in coherency means you're attached to the squad. The unit would then not have the infiltrate ability thus negating the requirement that Farsight couldn't join it.

Or am I missing something.

Correct. Though this would simply attach Shadowsun to Farsight and his Bodyguard squad, they would not benefit from any of the special Infiltrate rules. This is the only legal way to run the Bomb and does not benefit from either Deep Strike or Infiltrate. Still strong, but offers a few counters for opponents.

Were there people really trying to infiltrate the Farsight bomb? I haven't seen a single person say that was legal...And I believe you can still deepstrike them. So this entire post was about them not being able to infiltrate which I'm pretty sure everybody understood and no one was trying (though I could be wrong).

Besides, if you're running Farsight right now without a Gate Libby you're being silly.

Does Farsights WT work with GoI? I don't think so. GoI simply places you by DS rules you are never in reserve and thus do not arrive by Deepstrike as required by the trait...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also yes I'm on a thread right now with people thinking you can infiltrate the bomb.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Were there people really trying to infiltrate the Farsight bomb? I haven't seen a single person say that was legal...And I believe you can still deepstrike them. So this entire post was about them not being able to infiltrate which I'm pretty sure everybody understood and no one was trying (though I could be wrong).

Besides, if you're running Farsight right now without a Gate Libby you're being silly.

Yes, people were trying to infiltrate Farsight with Shadowsun.

As to Deepstriking...

You must declare reserves and detail those reserves, that includes IC's and Infiltrators. Pg 124 and Pg respectively. Infiltrates are reserved as normal, not later in the turn after both sides have deployed. This would require the Joining of Shadowsun and Farsight to the Unit of Bodyguards at the same time.

Pg 38 precludes attatching an IC without Infiltrate to a unit of Infiltrators. It is a reasonable argument that they are mutually exclusive as the unit of Bodyguard are Infiltrators and have the option to Outflank due to Shadowsun. You cannot create an order of operations to this step as none exists and it would require Farsight to be joined to a unit of Infiltrators before their method of reserve arrival(DS, Outflank, Walk on) has been determined. This makes DSing Farsight and Shadowsun with a Unit of Bodyguard against RAW.

The only legal way to get Shadowsun and Farsight to join the Same unit of Bodyguards is by first Deploying the Bodyguards, then attatching Farsight in deployment then later during Infiltrators deployment attatching Shadowsun to the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does Farsights WT work with GoI? I don't think so. GoI simply places you by DS rules you are never in reserve and thus do not arrive by Deepstrike as required by the trait...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also yes I'm on a thread right now with people thinking you can infiltrate the bomb.

I believe you are correct.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does Farsights WT work with GoI? I don't think so. GoI simply places you by DS rules you are never in reserve and thus do not arrive by Deepstrike as required by the trait...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also yes I'm on a thread right now with people thinking you can infiltrate the bomb.

It's off topic but since there is a section titled "Arriving by Deep Strike" in the deepstrike rules and there is nothing about being in reserve. The warlord trait says "arriving by Deepstrike". The GoI says to use the DS rules. So I'm not seeing how it doesn't work.

I'd read the arriving by Deep strike section again it clearly includes the reserves roll. You then deploy by deep strike which is the part that GoI references it is clear being in reserves is partof arrival- Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: BRB page 36.

I don't have my book at work, but iirc, i don't see why farsight and shadowsun and the bodyguard unit can't all DS together.

You have to declare if a unit is in-reserve @ the time of deployment, as well as their method of arrival, and once in reserve, you can declare they are attached, or not.

Are you saying the req. that units with the infiltrate rule must be deployed last precludes the use of deepstrike?

If a unit with infiltrate cannot enter reserves... then I see why deploying all by DS would be against RaW.

I don't have the text of the infiltrate rule in front of me at the moment, however.

You don't join Shadowsun to the Farsight bomb to infiltrate it, its for Stealth and Shrouded. Then you deep strike with the whole lot of them.

Gwyidion wrote:
I don't have my book at work, but iirc, i don't see why farsight and shadowsun and the bodyguard unit can't all DS together.

You have to declare if a unit is in-reserve @ the time of deployment, as well as their method of arrival, and once in reserve, you can declare they are attached, or not.

Are you saying the req. that units with the infiltrate rule must be deployed last precludes the use of deepstrike?

If a unit with infiltrate cannot enter reserves... then I see why deploying all by DS would be against RaW.

I don't have the text of the infiltrate rule in front of me at the moment, however.

The problem becomes when you declare reserves you have to join Shadowsun and Farsight to the Bodyguards, which means that you are joining an IC without Infiltrate to a unit of Infiltrators. Shadowsun grants Infiltrate to the Bodyguard squad once you declare they are in reserves and joined. Now you would declare how they are arriving from reserves. As infiltrators Outflank is an option. But, with Farsight in the unit you've joined an IC without Infiltrate to a unit with it, which is against the rules for Infiltrate.

So even though you mean to deploy them from reserves via deepstrike, it is still against RAW as you had the option to declare outflank. Just because you choose not to use their Infiltrate special rule does not mean they are not infiltrators with it and the option to outflank.

Join Farsight, THEN join shadowsun. Done.

Zagman wrote:
Pg 38 clearly states that "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."

My take on all this is that

1) Being put into reserves is not deployment ("Can choose not to deploy up to half of their units")
2) Arriving from reserves is deployment ("Models deploying via deep strike", "when the reserves arrive the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it" et al.)
3) At the point that the Farsight bomb is experiencing "deployment" Farsight is already attached.

Thus, Farsight does not join the unit during deployment, he joins them prior to it, and there is no conflict with the Infiltrate rule.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Thus, Farsight does not join the unit during deployment, he joins them prior to it, and there is no conflict with the Infiltrate rule.

There is still an issue, to do with timing and when units go into reserve.

The rundown at the start of the 'playing a game' section takes you through deployment by deploying your army (including placing models into reserve), and then once both players have done that, placing any infiltrators.

You declare the structure of your reserves when you place them into reserve, which is during that initial deployment. So by the time you get to your infiltrators (who are then either placed on the board or into reserve) you have already declared the structure for Farsight and his unit, so some argue that Shadowsun would not be able to be joined to that unit in reserve.

This is all predicated on the idea that infiltrators have no choice but to go last, which is backed up by the Infiltrators rule entry, but contradicted by the Setup rules, which refer to those units who 'chose' to infiltrate. So either the Infiltrate rule is badly written, or the mention in the Setup rules is an error.

Interesting pondering, not a rule argument itself but just some curious thoughts that creep in when reading this thread:
Would that not make it illegal to place infiltrators into reserve to start with?

Should the order of events be correct then we have an issue when it comes to reserves and infiltrators, clearly or this thread wouldn't exist. As Insaniak point out, the reserve section is badly written so that both 'must and choose' are present but for this thought exercise let us assume must is correct. This would create the timing of: deploying forces, declaring reserves and then deploying infiltrators. The only moment you can add units to your reserves is when they are deployed, so the infiltrators would to wait till after the initial lot of troops are in reserves. However, you are told to announce your reserve organization at the moment of deployment, which would happen with the initial armies deployment.

Given that the organization of reserves has already been announced would you have permission to change said organization?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Join Farsight, THEN join shadowsun. Done.

But now you are creating an order of events where none exists to circumvent a rule. At the least Farsight Bomb is no rules legal and requires an FAQ, preferrably in the BRB about infiltrators, reserves, etc.



As I read the reserve rules, you choose to reserves infiltrators during normal deployment when you declare reserves.

JinxDragon wrote:
Interesting pondering, not a rule argument itself but just some curious thoughts that creep in when reading this thread:
Would that not make it illegal to place infiltrators into reserve to start with?

I vagueluy recall from the last time this was discussed that there is a permission for infiltrators to go into reserve somewhere in there, although it might have just been assumed from the fact hat infiltrators can outflank.

Either way, I'm inclined to think that you're supposed to have a choice to use the Infiltrate rule or not, as that is the option that seems to fit the best with the reserves rules.

Question on the MUST infiltrate claims.

It also says infiltrate confers outflank. If they MUST infiltrate how the hell do they outflank using the same rule to be allowed to outflank? Nothing says they have to infiltrate, as half of that paragraph is useless if they were forced to infiltrate. Also, using snikrot again, Ambush is impossible to use if infiltrating units mMUST infiltrate

Edit: oh and to the claims someone made that the ork faq only allows a bike, thats utter rubbish and you know it. Bikes change base and bulkyness, thats probably why it mentioned a bike. Theres no reason why only a bike could join but nonbike ic cannot, especially since the unit doesnt have bikes anyway to allow it that way