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I've been reading through the new proposed rules for the Javelin speeder, found here http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/j/Relic_Javelin.pdf.

I'll use codex DA for comparison as it is the newest SM codex, so:

For the same points as a CML equipped speeder, the Javelin gets +1 to its front and side armour, as well as twin-linked to its CML.

As a downside they cannot be taken in squadrons and don't have scout. (Don't have DA codex to hand atm, so can't remember 100% if they do actually have this).

Does the lack of squadrons balance a point for point better speeder? Or will we see more single javelins in SM armies in coming months?

You're assuming that the current speeders are balanced for their points, as opposed to the current ones being over-priced and the Javelin being balanced.

You could be right, but as codex DA is pretty new, and also the ravenwing are a key part of it (ie not a part that will be made worse for overall balance) one would hope that the existing speeders are correct for their points.

FW just aren't very good at balancing points.

 Daba wrote:
FW just aren't very good at balancing points.

I'd argue that it's a case of the normal Land Speeders being too expensive. They're 10/10/10 2HP vehicles, it's not as though they're hard to kill or anything.

 Daba wrote:
FW just aren't very good at balancing points.

I agree, a lot of their units should be far more useful for the points assigned to them when compared with unit entries in the regular codexes

Big Blind Bill wrote:
I've been reading through the new proposed rules for the Javelin speeder, found here http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/j/Relic_Javelin.pdf.

I'll use codex DA for comparison as it is the newest SM codex, so:

I don't agree with your comparison here, DA have always had cheaper speeders, it's part of their schtick.

Is the Javelin speeder strictly better than the Typhoon at both points costs, yes! Just more so for SM as opposed to DA. Is it over-powered? No, ultimately it's a slightly better armoured typhoon with more/better shooting and will still die as soon as a Wave Serpent/Night Scythe/Annhilation Barge/Dreadnought looks at it.

I'd probably run it with 2 HK's + MM outflank to set 5 Str8 shots into the rear of something important.

I don't agree with your comparison here, DA have always had cheaper speeders, it's part of their schtick.

Well it was either this or take it from Codex SM, which is getting a bit out of date now. Either way it doesn't matter, as the points are only slightly different, if not exactly the same.

Is it overpowered? No. of course not. But as a marked improvement over a standard typhoon but without a raised points cost or negative changes (armour 11 remember makes it twice as durable vs str 5 fire, and immune to str 4 shots), one must ask what is the mark in terms of points and stats for a balanced speeder.

I myself will be keeping an eye on the next SM codex to compare their speeder - either it will be redundant due to the javelin, or it will be balanced against it, which will leave Ravenwing speeders behind.

The ability to squadron is significant, but only in certain circumstances. While the rules are better in 6th, it's still not something you want to do most of the time. You are looking at mid/high point games where you are not using a double FOC. At low points, you aren't using the 3 FA slots you have, and at 2xFOC, 6 should be enough; you'll run out of points first. For very large games you are probably ignoring/modifying the chart anyway, or just going apoc.

I will admit, that the 1,500 to 1999+1 games are very common. But not every army build uses every slot the same. Marine FA slots are generally regarded as soft, in my experience.

If you are fielding them as part of an allied detachment, the slots become relevant again.

But trading away the ability to squadron does not justify all the boosts they gave it.

Some ideas on how to balance it:

Keep the armor, but drop the jink save. This is easily explained as the more massive speeder is tougher, but less maneuverable.

Drop the TL on the CML. Or switch it to a different system (like skyhammers)

Drop the armor back down to AV10

Bump up the points.

Some of the upgrade costs are a little off. Do we pay 5 points for a HK anywhere else? Can anything but the ironclad take 2? If we take the stormtalon as an example, TLLC costs 5 points less then a non-TL'd TML.

The best way, since it's based on the deodorant bottle skimmer tank model, is to make it non-fast.

Then you can cut the points a little on the base model, and it performs a separate role to other units.

Tbh I think SM could do with a little love, especially given all the toys the xenos are getting, and getting a better typhoon for cheaper seems nice. Plus how many people do you see dropping 50 quid for one.

I agree, considering the new toys like the wave serpent, that the base land speeder could get away with a few buffs. I would hope though that most SM codices who also use speeders (Particularly Ravenwing!) could also be brought in line.

OT: The price is a little high, but then again how hard is it to "relicify" a standard speeder and say its a javelin. I guess more than a few players will go this route.

 CaptainJay wrote:
Tbh I think SM could do with a little love, especially given all the toys the xenos are getting, and getting a better typhoon for cheaper seems nice. Plus how many people do you see dropping 50 quid for one.

I'd rather Typhoons become better.

 Daba wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:
Tbh I think SM could do with a little love, especially given all the toys the xenos are getting, and getting a better typhoon for cheaper seems nice. Plus how many people do you see dropping 50 quid for one.

I'd rather Typhoons become better.

I totally agree just think it's unlikely :-(

 CaptainJay wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:
Tbh I think SM could do with a little love, especially given all the toys the xenos are getting, and getting a better typhoon for cheaper seems nice. Plus how many people do you see dropping 50 quid for one.

I'd rather Typhoons become better.

I totally agree just think it's unlikely :-(

I field typhoons regularly at 90 points. They are a little expensive, but I don't regret putting them on the table. I'll be thrilled if they go down to 75, like the DA ones. If I get something like these, I'll never have an empty FA slot again.

I'd expect regular speeders to drop a little in points cost next codex. Many things in 5th were more expensive than 6th, I'm not sure they would make them as cheap as DA though.

Speeders are normally balanced internally with attack bikes though, and I don't see them changing points.