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Hello Everyone!

I am building my first Eldar list and I am hung up on the Heavy Support options. Since I have yet to play a game (or a proxy game) with Eldar, I am looking gauge other Eldar player's experience with Heavy Support options. I saw the Fire Prism/Falcons as well as Wraith options as choices. On the surface (and reviewing other people's posted lists), it appears that Wraiths are the current flavor. For those who have tried both, is my assumption that Wraithknights/Wraithlords are the better overall choice for Heavy Support?

Thanks all!

Warwalkers, in my experience, are the best.

All scatterlasers, scatter & starcannon, or all brightlance appear to be the best options.

Wraithlords have been pretty underwhelming in my experience so far. Ppl hate them and target them with the many things that cut them down quickly, and you pay a lot of points for only a few guns.

I've also tried support batteries (shadow weavers) and they are *extremely* durable and very cheap, but don't do a huge amount of damage.

Fire prisms look good. Falcons, unfortunately, now seem overpriced for what they can do.

Wraithknights seem really overpriced for just a couple of guns.

It really depends.
Fire Prism has got range and versatility and is direct fire.

I don't particularly like Falcons, unless I'm boating Fire Dragons or... no just Fire Dragons.

No one seems to mention Night Spinners despite them being quite nasty. S7(8 vs I3- or Models lacking an Initiative), Pseudo-Rend, and Barrage which makes them useful for taking out Characters.

Wraithknights: I prefer to run these with the SL/Suncannon combo. Its 300 points, has good range and damage output. Terrible at dropping vehicles with this loadout. If you insist on running melee with one I suggest taking advantage of Area Terrain and your Move Through Cover as a Jump MC as well as taking two Shuriken Cannons over 2 Scatter Lasers, however I'd much rather run...

Two Wraithlords for the same price. 2 Shuriken Cannons and Wraithglaive on both comes out 30 points more than the melee version of the Wraithknight but the opponent now has to shoot at 2 separate units and you have 2 more attacks and effectively the same strength (9 vs 10 thanks to the Glaive). Go ahead and change those crappy catapults for flamers while you're at it. No one will want to assault you.

Edit @ up: Yeah WW are great weapons platforms. Give 'em Ghostwalk and Holo Fields and you've got some of the most resilient AV10(fix'd) in the game. Their default load out is great and if you need them to hurt things other than Toughness units, they have an upgrade for that. iEldar and all.

The standard objection to Falcons is that Serpents are generally better. Falcons are better in very few situations, and those situations are usually not ones where it makes sense to use a Falcon. Unless you're seeing a lot of multi-wound T4, the Falcon is hard to justify.

Prisms are a respectable option. You want to have some blast weapons in your list to force people to spread out, and they're reasonably good at taking on AV14 from long range. I think Wraithknights are generally preferable, since they can do a lot of the same things plus more, and Prisms are too easily knocked out when people really need to shut them down. Consider allying in Tau for a Riptide instead, which can provide an S8 AP2 large blast with the option for the Ordnance special rule.

I like the stock Wraithknight quite a bit. It provides anti-tank punch comparable to the Prism for its points and is a lot harder to take out, and it's also very powerful in CC.

Wraithlords seem inferior to Wraithknights. A 2xBL WL costs 2/3 of what a WK does but has significantly less firepower against MCs and AV10-13. The WL is much slower and has half as many wounds, and also can't instakill T5 in CC without smashing (of course, it also can't catch things that don't want to get caught anyway).

I think you should also consider War Walkers, which are an extremely cheap bright lance platform. SL/SC also works.

Your HS slots should really never be empty, since if nothing else jumps out at you it's hard to go wrong with Shadow Weavers. They're amazing for what they cost, and their only drawback is that they stop you from taking a Wraithknight or more War Walkers.

With a Wraithknight and its stock cannons, I read that they cause Instant Death if they roll a 6 to wound due to Distort. Does that also to apply to other monstrous creatures, such as a Riptide?

 Havok210 wrote:
With a Wraithknight and its stock cannons, I read that they cause Instant Death if they roll a 6 to wound due to Distort. Does that also to apply to other monstrous creatures, such as a Riptide?

Yes, it works on everything with wounds that doesn't have Eternal Warrior. They still get invulnerable or cover saves, though. But it's important to remember when you're doing expected value calculations that when firing at a multi-wound model a wraithcannon is better than a weapon without the Distort rule. Against a T6+ model with 5 wounds, a wraithcannon is 80% better than a S10 AP2 weapon without that rule, on average.

Let's see.

War Walkers are really diverse and great for their cost. They can be tooled for anything, and even their basic loadout is good at killing infantry, from Termagants to Terminators. With guide or prescience they become even better, so having two of whichever weapon is advisable if you have a Farseer in your list.

Fire Prisms are great. Their large blast kills things dead, even better that it kills MEQ. It's like a Battle cannon that also kills Land Raiders. It's a very diverse vehicle.

Wraithlords are a weird middleground between Wraithknights and War walkers. They can be geared for both CC and shooting, but their speed is their downfall. If you take them, take them for their guns. As MCs, they are AP2 in CC anyway.

Wraithknights are essentially giant, fast, super wraithguard. Take them stock. You can get AP2 elsewhere for less.

Was reading on Heresy Online a guy arguing that the fire prism lance shot competes with Zoanthropes for the best long range anti-AR13-14 weapon in the game. It's a persuasive argument.

I definitely don't see any non-fluffy reason to buy a wraithknight, though. Low firepower, too vulnerable to poison/snipers, and cuts way too much into the number of points you have available to spend on wave serpents.

I don't understand how a WK has low firepower. Even as a gun platform, you get 2 shots per turn until it dies. 10 shots over a game is pretty good for 5 Wraithguard, and they require transport, are much more limited in their target selection, and can't shoot early in the game. The WK is also an excellent target for Guide or Prescience, beaten out only by squads of War Walkers or Dark Reapers. It's at least as good as a Prism against AV13 and under, and in realistic scenarios is probably as good against AV14 for its points (it can't be shaken, and a Prism with stones and holofields isn't putting out significantly more firepower per point vs AV14). And it's a CC monster.

Yeah, it's vulnerable to poison and snipers. If what you really struggle with are lists with tons of snipers and poison, it's not a good addition. But Eldar crush Dark Eldar - if you're up against Venom spam, just hold the WK in reserve, since the Venoms won't survive two turns of fire. The WK is a better gun platform than a Prism against Tyranid MCs even if it never gets into CC.

The only real problem case for a list with a WK and a bunch of Serpents, where the WK isn't likely to pull its weight, is Tau with lots of MP Crisis Suits and Kroot Snipers and not much else. The Kroot don't have range to put many shots on the WK if you deploy smart, but they constrain its movement and prevent it from getting a shot on the suits. Broadsides can still be IDed at range and so the WK remains useful if the list includes them. A WK isn't doing badly for itself taking potshots at Riptides either. A WK is useful if the Tau list includes an Iridium Armor Commander who might otherwise sit in front of a unit to tank for them, and this setup can cause enormous problems for Serpent spam otherwise.

Pretty much all the HS options work in the right list.

WW are probably the most versatile and hardest hitting point per point. Load them out for what you need, I recommend BL/BL, SC/SL, or SL/SL. Each has its purpose.

Fireprisms are pretty good anti-AV at long range and fit well with skimmer armies.

Nightspinners have a torrent weapon which can be excellent if you need some extra horde control and is great for killing wraith(necrons).

Wraithlords are really there to soak up enemy fire rather than do damage. If you take them give them a BL/BL or SC/SL so they are enough threat that the enemy needs to deal with them.

Falcons are a decent gunboat and do enough damage you can make them work. With how good WS are though they are usually not taken.

Vaul's support batteries are excellent for the points. They are tough and decent firepower. The only reason they are not auto takes is that HS is a hotly contested slot in an eldar army.

Finally Wraithknights are actually excellent. If anyone says they are not they should read some batreps where they are used. The stock is the best IMO with the SunCan/SL/Shield option somewhat not optimal. The thing people miss is that the WK is the ultimate harassment unit. If you have it in your list and know what you are doing you will control the board as the entire opponent army reacts to one model.

Interestingly enough vaul's battery, WW, and WK are the three units that can more or less go into any type of eldar list assuming you need that type of firepower in your list.

Why anyone would take a falcon over a serpent... Just don't know.

Math hammer says that serpents are better vs av12 and less, better vs mcs, betters infantry, more survivable, and more transport space.

With the new dex, I converted all my falcons to serpents. Haven't looked back.

Well next dex when falcon pulse lasers become heavy 4 you are going to be very mad at yourself...

I still use the odd Falcon, it's still a handy transport for Fire Dragons and because it's guns are turret mounted it's basically doubling the Firepower of a Waveserpent for 5-10 more points. Waveserpents can't line up their shield firepower and successfully deliver units from the rear hatch all that well thanks to 45 degree arc. Mind you I play vehicle facings, cover and arcs properly which does give the Falcon some situational advantages, a lot of people don't seem to.

Anyways, the best overall choices for Heavy are the Wraithknight, Nightspinner, Vaul's Support batteries.

- Wraithknight is just a great cheap board control bruiser and his firepower rounds out the top end where Eldar lack (High Strength Ranged weaponry)
- Nightspinner has the two top qualities a gun can have in 6th, Barrage and Torrent, and you get the choice each round.
- Vaul's Support are your Damage and Resiliency to points outlaid maximisers. The Almighty Barrage rule too.

Outside the top three the rest are okay, but more specialised to the type of list you bring

- Warwalkers don't have the Firepower and Toughness of Vaul's support, but they can move.
- Wraithlords cost 2/3rds a Wraithknight but have less resilience and mobility. The difference they bring to the table is they can take precision shots with their guns, and challenge models.
- Reapers have a barrage option that's much lower strength but good AP. Cheap source of Starshot missles but horrible resiliency.

With the outsiders you better have some serious threats on the board to draw away attention because they're very fragile for their points.

I think it also depends on points. If heavy support is not a major factor in your list, then by all means take the vauls wrath batteries. If they are, then you can take a wraithknight. Despite all the crap people give the wraithlord, I think they are still playable, and act as a counter assault unit or at the very least a boogeyman. I would advise taking the wraithlords in pairs as well, as redundancy really helps this unit. War Walkers are good. That's all I can say about them. Dark reapers are fine, just costly. Fire Prism is versatile with its three firing modes, but personally I have had no luck with the lance shot but YMMV. Night spinner is also very good, and the torrent mode is pretty good as well. I personally would choose 3 platforms of shadow weavers, but again thats just my preference.

Well, you already got good advice.
The outstanding unit in the HS slot are the Warwalker squadrons. They can deal with almost everything and can be guided (or use prescience) to maximize damage output.

pantsonhead wrote:
I don't understand how a WK has low firepower. Even as a gun platform, you get 2 shots per turn until it dies. 10 shots over a game is pretty good for 5 Wraithguard, and they require transport, are much more limited in their target selection, and can't shoot early in the game.

Wraithguard isn't really a fair comparison, since they are more about taking and holding ground vs. the wraithknight, which is an offensive/firepower unit. But if you consider that you can get 10 wraithguard for less than one Wraithknight, if that unit only takes one shot in the whole game, they're getting as many shots per game as the WK.

But I was thinking more along the lines of Wave Serpents (11 shots average per turn at half the cost of a WK) and War Walkers (24 shots per turn for scatterlasers) or even vypers (18 shots per turn with shuriken cannons). Extreme survivability is less important when you can wipe out the relevant threats in a couple of turns with massed firepower, and Eldar units have the ability to pack huge numbers of shots into just the first few turns. Wraithknights with their two shots are more suited to attrition battles, which Eldar don't do very well in.

Yes, you need some antitank for AR12-14 targets, but you get more shots for less out of BL walkers and fire prisms, which are also more versatile and pack more shots in per-point than a Wraithknight.

Wraithknights are a solution looking for a problem that isn't there.

Wraithknights are a solution looking for a problem that isn't there.

Right. Its probably the fear factor that comes in here since the WK has jump pack and so is fast enough to counter enemy plans.

Also - wraithknights can hide in cc to avoid enemy fire.
I don't like fire prisms as much in this edition, they aren't cutting it enough for me anymore.
War walkers are still too flimsy for me most of the time.

Wraithknights provide solutions to a whole range of problems that can show up during a game. Their mobility and durability, combined with their ability to take on almost any type of unit makes them a great problem solver.

I have found having one in a mech list very handy for drawing fire away from serpents and preventing assault units getting too close.

Only take one though and keep it at base cost. Long range anti tank is still slightly harder to come by than long range AI in the Eldar dex, and 300pts is rediculous.

Falcons are pretty much pointless now (why do I own 6?).

Fire Prisms are bad, bad, bad. Dont let that awsome weapon profile fool you! They will destroy 1 AV 12+ tank per 6 turns on average with the lance, and their AI firepower is pitiful compared to other options.

War walker still rock. The amount of firepower for the points is hard to match.

Based on my play experience so far, War Walkers are actually *more* survivable than before. Battle Focus lets them dodge in and out of cover/range while still shooting. AR10 and open-topped don't matter when you don't get shot at all.

I didn't think much of prisms either until somebody pointed out to me that a str9 lance weapon at AP1 is actually slightly better than a D-cannon against AR13-14 because of the extra bonus on the damage table.

I think the fear factor of a Wraithknight only works on opponents who lack experience and will fall for it. I can't imagine anything a WK is going to do in my back lines that I can't just ignore. The only WK batrep I've seen so far, the Eldar player lost everything except the Wraithknight, which his opponent just bogged with HtH and shot up the rest of his army for the win.

If a WK tries to hide in CC, then that's good for me as the opponent since it's bogged out of the game for a couple of turns at least.

In fact, the Wraithknight is questionable. As said, just take one without upgrades. If guided (or via prescience), it can almost safely fire its weapons. Nevertheless, there are better units in the HS slot such as Warwalkers.

My down on the prisms is that they've actually lost versatility in this edition by adding modes of fire.

Which is a really weird thing to say.

Now I have a st9 lance, a st7 ap2 blast or a st5 ap3 large blast IIRC.

I can only kill what I shoot at - in the old dex, if I missed with my st9 ap2 blast whatever it scattered onto was dead. Now I miss with the lance and I've missed completely. ST7 ap2 doesn't cut it against a lot of vehicles so I see the prism as valid against troops using the blasts (although it no longers insta kills and negates fnp) but using the lance gun is meh at best. It could be doing so much more damage than hoping to fluke a vehicle. Taking 2 prisms with holofields is almost as much as a wraithknight and is about as effective against vehicles. Taking 1 wraithknight instead of 2 prisms leaves me a heavy support slot free.

Whats the best (most versatile vs damage dealing) loadout for war walkers?

2 Heavy Wraithcannons + impact hit + 5 A when charging = 8 S10 attacks being piled into 1 target when the WK gets close. Heavy infantry and tanks cannot ignore that and neither can blobs of non-fearless/stubborn infantry (the WK will cause a few wounds, take non in return and then run broken units down with his I5).

 Flavius Infernus wrote:


Wraithknights are a solution looking for a problem that isn't there.

The Wraithknight is taken to provide the opponent with the problem in the first instance.

It ticks all four boxes - Speed, Toughness, Assault, Firepower. As others have said, it's a good addition to a Waveserpent heavy army as it gives the board control that serpents on their own don't, and has complimentary firepower.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:


Wraithknights are a solution looking for a problem that isn't there.

The Wraithknight is taken to provide the opponent with the problem in the first instance.

It ticks all four boxes - Speed, Toughness, Assault, Firepower. As others have said, it's a good addition to a Waveserpent heavy army as it gives the board control that serpents on their own don't, and has complimentary firepower.

In fact, I'm inclined to include one in my Serpent spam list at higher pt levels.

ninjafiredragon wrote:
Why anyone would take a falcon over a serpent... Just don't know.

Math hammer says that serpents are better vs av12 and less, better vs mcs, betters infantry, more survivable, and more transport space.

With the new dex, I converted all my falcons to serpents. Haven't looked back.

There is only one reason to look at a falcon over a serpent. A falcon does not have to come as a dedicated transport.

So if your looking at a serpent, your going to be getting at least one squad of avengers or guardians that will go into the serpent. You might also take a serpent for a striking scorpion squad so you can infiltrate it, but that's another topic.

This is not a problem for your first 4 or 5 serpents. Its good to have a lot of troop choices for objective missions. However, when your looking at moving up to 7 or 8 serpents, your starting to stretch for units to take them as a dedicated transport for.

At this point I could see someone taking falcons or war walkers. A falcon delivers 2.5 less shots on average than the serpent -- 9 shots vs 11.5). Its shots also do not ignore cover and have a shorter range. On the plus side, being STR 8 means they can double out paladins and are more of a threat to vehicles.

Right now I've got 4 wave serpents painted up and playing. I'm probably going to go up to 5 serpents, but not any more. I'm looking at Falcons, WW, or even DE allies to fill out the army. To be honest though, I'm probably going to take the WW.

I like my Fire Prism. Can't think of another weapon that can punch a hole in the side of a Land Raider one Turn, then dial down on the focussing crystal to blat an entire squad of Marines the next turn.

Wraithlord has it's place as well, not used mine much though (I generally run my Eldar as allies, and I don't leave home without my Prism) so I can't really say much there.

My other choice (at the moment, at least) is a Unit of Dark Reapers. Love those guys, denying Jink is a godsend sometimes.

So personally, I'd say if you've only got the points for one choice take the Prism.

Walkers are your best friend but I also suggest a wraithknight to attract fire.

The walkers an serpents are great but like all tanks its best no one shoots at them and whats more distracting than a huge walker.

Even if they focus your tanks your wraithknight can move forward and do some damage in their back lines.

The Fire Prisms main advantage over other HS options is the 60" range. Playing the longer board deployments, it can sit (or hover left and right slowly) away and shoot.

It's funny how it's not really possible to talk about Eldar HS choices without including wave serpents now. They are more effective in a fire support role than a lot of the actual HS choices.

I'm still not persuaded about Wraithknights. I can't think of anything a WK can do that some other HS choice can't do better and cheaper--and without being hard-countered by an army with a lot of poison, gauss or rending (or even bladestorm). How long will your "distraction" last against a DE venom spam army?

The two things they arguably do well, fire magnet and MC assault, aren't really things an Eldar army needs, IMHO.