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Made in nl
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






As per the subject, currently running autocannons because they will wound on 2+ (vs. toughness 4) and are capable of shooting through front armor of most vehicles (excl. av 14) and range 48'' vs 36''.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/27 19:13:05


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Made in us
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge





Fort Hood (Tx)

you just proved a point for AC. \

why use a heavybolter?


Check out my slow progressing work blog Vlka Fenryka 
   
Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






London

I think in every scenario the Autocannon wins. Longer range and higher strength makes it ideal for popping light armour. Yes the Heavy Bolter has an extra shot but personally this doesn't justify taking it over the Autocannon
   
Made in us
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




West Chester, PA

All the reasons stated, and all your vehicles come with a free HB anyways.

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Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Canada

HBs will typically get more kills versus light infantry, whereas ACs will kill heavy infantry more often and can wound light vehicle armour while a HB could only glance AV11 on a 6

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/28 00:57:17


 Paradigm wrote:
The key to being able to enjoy the game in real life and also be a member of this online community is to know where you draw the line. What someone online on the other side of the world that you've never met says should never deter you from taking a unit for being either weak or OP. The community is a great place to come for tactics advice, and there is a lot of very sound opinions and idea out there, but at the end of the day, play the game how you want to... Don't worry about the hordes of Dakka descending on your gaming club to arrest you for taking one heldrake or not using a screamerstar. Knowing the standard opinion (and that's all it is) on what is good/bad and conforming to that opinion religiously are two entirely separate things.
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






ACs, by far. HBs are only useful against infantry, while ACs are almost as good against infantry while also threatening vehicles.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in mx
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker




Inside my body

Autocannons for the win!

I also use AC unless I will be fighting light infantry with lots of cover.
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal






However, Heavy Bolters in mass can hurt a lot more against small TEQ than Auto-Cannons.

Just a note.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PXaEUwAZSc
"There is just something to be said about a 100, Green-tide Orks charging at you... it is unnerving... even to the most experienced player..."

5200 pnts
Flames of War Panzerkompanie


"RELEASE THE KRA- I MEAN, C'TAN!"
- Anonymous Necron Overlord who totally didn't impersonate Liam Neeson.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

What do heavy bolters give you that all your lasguns don't? What, among the answer to that question, isn't handled better by the autocannon?

Plus, there are so many ways to get heavy bolters, there's not much sense wasting a heavy weapon slot in an infantry squad for them.


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




 Ailaros wrote:
What do heavy bolters give you that all your lasguns don't?



3 shot even at max range, +12 inches range, +2 Str, +4AP among other things...
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




HBs vs MEQ: .333 MEQ/Turn
ACs vs MEQ: .278 TEQ/Turn
HBs vs TEQ: .167 MEQ/Turn
ACs vs TEQ: .139 TEQ/Turn

For reference:
LCs vs TEQ: .417 TEQ/Turn

In other words, HBs are better than ACs against the main infantry you'll run up against. Yes ACs can pop vehicles, but you're way better off just getting an LC instead, seeing as it can pop vehicles AND is significantly better at killing TEQs.

Moral of the story: Jack of all trades, master of none. Go for the HB if you need more infantry killing power, go for the LC against heavy mech.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Inquisitor Jex wrote:3 shot even at max range, +12 inches range, +2 Str, +4AP among other things...

... which add up to a weapon that's only really good against the same things lasguns are.

People don't take grenade launchers because they're not a serious threat to vehicles, while in a different firing mode being a blast lasgun. People don't add a bunch of extra heavy bolters to their list because they're not a serious threat to vehicles, and are just a long-range lasgun.

They don't seriously add anything to your list that you weren't already accomplishing, while taking up points and slots from those things that would.



Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




You don't take GL/HB/whatever's not efficient enough, some people do.

Not everyone bows down to the Mathahmmer altar. More than one way to play

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/28 22:27:46


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Not everyone bows down to the Mathahmmer altar.


You're right. Some people understand the game and make good decisions, some people make bad decisions because they stubbornly don't want to accept the math.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




Instead of hunting it down and copying every time, I'll make it my sig.
   
Made in us
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




West Chester, PA

Mathammer aside, the AC can threaten all infantry, MC, light vehicles, and medium vehicles (in mass). The HB can only really hurt infantry and high toughness when in high numbers.

You don't need numbers to recognize versatile weapons (AC) and single role weapons (HB).

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Made in us
Douglas Bader






Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Instead of hunting it down and copying every time, I'll make it my sig.


Yeah, how dare people analyze the options and make correct decisions. We should just pretend that we aren't playing a game of dice and make our strategic choices based on bad arguments instead.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

Overall the AC is much better weapon than the HB. I say this with the sad knowledge I have 6 Krieg HB teams which I use every now and then and always find them to be disappointing as compared to the AC or LC teams.

@eclipseoto
You should note that TEQ and MEQ are terrible targets to fire at with either weapon and you should have gotten an eradicator or plasma. The difference is actually pretty insignificant as either option will barely kill a single model over the course of a game.
On the other hand against HB teams the AC both outrange them and cause ID therefore the AC teams will kill your HB teams every game.

@Inquisitor Jex
So your point is that math is math and people have an informed opinion? You are therefore angry about this and wish it to not be so...interesting. and in all of this anger did you bother contributing to the thread? Just to check, are you aware that none of the "mathhammer crew" are going to come to your house and destroy your HB models or hold a gun to your head?


   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.


So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




Mine was just an observation of numbers, every weapon has it's own purposes (well... most weapons...) TEQ and MEQ are just good standard tests because they're the most prevalent unit in the games (as SM is the most popular race.)

It seems there's a strangely sore spot in the choice of heavy weapons teams, hahaha
   
Made in us
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





I think I just found my new signature. I don't always agree with Peregrine, but on this one I do for sure.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




I didn't say lie.

Some folks only have limited choice when it comes to the models they have either because they're on a budget, rejoining and they dust off their old models, got someone who gave them some minis, whatever. They want to know what they can accomplish with what they have. But when they come for advice, they get for answer that they ought to throw in the trash what they have, buy other models, and that even considering playing with what they have is laughable. To me, that is not tactical help.

   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






Are we still talking about the Heavy bolter? Why would you need to throw those away, they turn into excellent autocannons.

If we are talking about the people that went out and preordered things like Mutilators before even glossing over the book, then they deserve it. I hope they bought 12 boxes in the hopes they could run an all Mutilator army.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

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Made in us
Douglas Bader






Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I didn't say lie.


Sorry, but telling people bad options are anything other than terrible is lying (even if it's lying by omission). If the question is "AC vs. HB" the answer is "AC", not "but your HBs are cool too if you like them".

Some folks only have limited choice when it comes to the models they have either because they're on a budget, rejoining and they dust off their old models, got someone who gave them some minis, whatever. They want to know what they can accomplish with what they have. But when they come for advice, they get for answer that they ought to throw in the trash what they have, buy other models, and that even considering playing with what they have is laughable. To me, that is not tactical help.


So why are you posting in this thread then? Not only did the OP not say anything about working with a limited budget or being stuck with existing models, they even said they're already using ACs. Your complaint has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
Devastating Dark Reaper




 Peregrine wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Not everyone bows down to the Mathahmmer altar.


You're right. Some people understand the game and make good decisions, some people make bad decisions because they stubbornly don't want to accept the math.


And still others understand that an equation for playing 40k is more complex than (str+ap = armr+cover of mos seen unit inparticulars haunts)
Seriously Peregrine, most of your views are correct and their all based on at least some sort of fact.. But you seem to go out of your way to insult everybody on an IG thread, for the last god knows how long,that doesn't agree with you...

2k (lotsa spiders) 3k (lotsa LR's)
Why are basic Guardians BS4 when firewarriors train from birth? Cause by the time your best warriors die of old age Eldar haven't even been laid!!
kestril wrote:
Page 1: New guard topic
Page 2: FW debate
Page 3: Ailaros and Peregrine fight. TO THE DEATH
I swear I think those two have a hate-crush on each other sometimes.  
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Canada

People with opinions who treat it like science really need to stop doing that, and stop characterizing going against their opinions as 'lies' or equally ridiculous things. An AC is not mathematically superior in 100% of all situations and to ignore that is dishonest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/29 07:14:44


 Paradigm wrote:
The key to being able to enjoy the game in real life and also be a member of this online community is to know where you draw the line. What someone online on the other side of the world that you've never met says should never deter you from taking a unit for being either weak or OP. The community is a great place to come for tactics advice, and there is a lot of very sound opinions and idea out there, but at the end of the day, play the game how you want to... Don't worry about the hordes of Dakka descending on your gaming club to arrest you for taking one heldrake or not using a screamerstar. Knowing the standard opinion (and that's all it is) on what is good/bad and conforming to that opinion religiously are two entirely separate things.
 
   
Made in au
Devastating Dark Reaper




Perhaps Peregrine needs to be simply reminded of dakka's (alleged) views on this..

..."it is incredibly easy for something you write to be construed as being negative, hostile, attacking, etc, when it was never your intention to be any of these things. Therefore, you are required to make every effort to go above and beyond, and ensure that your posts, pictures, etc, are perhaps even a bit overly polite, in order to compensate for all those missing visual cues we're all used to having in everyday conversations.

Polite conversation is of vital importance with a large community like we have here, as being rude/impolite (including assuming you know what other people intended and calling them out as a "troll") only ever inflames a situation and leads to what is known as "Flame Wars." Whenever a flame war starts it nearly always ruins a perfectly good discussion. Others then lose interest in the thread and eventually the site in general if this kind of interchange becomes a common occurrence.

2k (lotsa spiders) 3k (lotsa LR's)
Why are basic Guardians BS4 when firewarriors train from birth? Cause by the time your best warriors die of old age Eldar haven't even been laid!!
kestril wrote:
Page 1: New guard topic
Page 2: FW debate
Page 3: Ailaros and Peregrine fight. TO THE DEATH
I swear I think those two have a hate-crush on each other sometimes.  
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Quite.

Tone down your rhetoric when conversing with other forum members or don't post.

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Made in hu
Regular Dakkanaut




Hungary

ok

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/29 07:30:55


 
   
 
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