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So, I have a very nice consistent losing record with my C:SM armies so far.

Lately I have been playing a lot of 1250pt level games, and usually 2v2. I can field basically everything in the codex except flyers and TFCs. There are not a lot of flyers in my local meta. The opponents in my meta tend to be newer codexes.

How can I be successful at 1250 without fielding TFC? And does it become necessary to field named characters? I generally field generic Libbys but I feel like my army just lacks the cool tricks that my opponents tend to wipe me out with.

Here is the list I fielded against a DA army with the Banner of Devastation and a divination libby that basically had me tabled at the bottom of turn 5.

Libby

Sternguard
5x Combi-Melta, 1x Multi-Melta

Tactical
10x, PG, PC
Rhino

Tactical
10x Flamer, ML
Rhino

LandSpeeder
HF, MM

LandSpeeder
HF, MM

LandSpeeder
Typhoon

Predator
Dakka

Predator
Auto/Las



The MM/HF speeders did absolutely nothing. Their range is too short and I won't be taking them anymore. The Typhoon stayed alive till the end but didn't do much. The Dakka Pred killed 4 DW Termies in one shooting phase. The Auto/Las pred blew up early. The rhinos didn't get their troops anywhere before they blew up.

The DA guys were nearly all behind an ADL. The DA libby casting divination on a 4x LC devastor squad was pretty nasty.

Anyways. Can C:SM be competitive at 1250 without spamming TFCs?

I'm thinking I should just run my Silver Skulls out of the DA codex until the new vanilla codex comes out.

I'd say get a thunderfire cannon or two and see if that helps.

C:SM lists really need thunderfire cannons for the ignore cover and anti-horde tech, imo. They are way more powerful than dakka preds or the equivalent in my opinion.

 SickSix wrote:
Lately I have been playing a lot of 1250pt level games, and usually 2v2.

<sigh> It's really hard to give advice in a 2v2 setting, as your ally could very well be the problem. Competitive gaming is all done 1v1 in 1500-2000 point games.

I can field basically everything in the codex except flyers and TFCs. There are not a lot of flyers in my local meta. The opponents in my meta tend to be newer codexes.

The best 2 things in the vanilla codex ATM is TFCs and Storm Talons.....so....yeah.

How can I be successful at 1250 without fielding TFC? And does it become necessary to field named characters? I generally field generic Libbys but I feel like my army just lacks the cool tricks that my opponents tend to wipe me out with.

Can you be successful? Depends on how good your ally is, and how bad your opponents are.
It's not 100% necessary to field a named character....but they certainly don't hurt.
Quick note, there's nothing stopping you from using the DA codex....or chaos....or BA, SW or Legion. Find a build you like and pick the best book to represent it.

Here is the list I fielded against a DA army with the Banner of Devastation and a divination libby that basically had me tabled at the bottom of turn 5.

The banner of devastation basically means that his tactical squads are going to outgun yours 3 or more to 1....so blow that banner up with all due haste.

Libby

Can't go wrong here. Power selection will depend on your opponents.

Sternguard
5x Combi-Melta, 1x Multi-Melta

The multi-melta is....marginal at best. I think this squad needs to be re-tooled, as you are paying what? Almost 200 points for 6 power armored guys? Drop-pod and combi-plasma maybe,bumped up to 10 man? Dunno if you can squeeze them in points wise in 1250 though.

Tactical
10x, PG, PC
Rhino

They're tactical marines...so meh, but they are geared fairly well. Might want to consider a combi-plasma on the sergeant I suppose.

Tactical
10x Flamer, ML
Rhino

I'm not a big fan of flamers on tactical squads. Experience shows that they almost never fire.

LandSpeeder
HF, MM

LandSpeeder
HF, MM

LandSpeeder
Typhoon

Land speeders are poor in 6th. Swap em out IMO

Predator
Dakka

Predator
Auto/Las

My experience with predators in 6th has been really poor. The dakka pred is passable, but the AC/LC has been a big disappointment.

I'm thinking I should just run my Silver Skulls out of the DA codex until the new vanilla codex comes out.

Not a terrible idea. The only way you can keep vanilla competitive at the moment is a combination of TFCs, storm talons, allies and forgeworld toys really. The vanilla codex has extremely poor troop choices and mediocre HQ choices, but access to some decent FA, elite and heavy support.

If the TFC prices bother you, there are alternatives out there.
http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Warpath/Forge-Fathers/Vehicles/Product/Forge-Father-Jotunn-Heavy-Hailstorm-Cannon-Bundle.html

As a BA player, I love the auto/las pred, but if I were C:SM, I think I'd avoid it as well.

Martel732 wrote:
As a BA player, I love the auto/las pred, but if I were C:SM, I think I'd avoid it as well.

I play as BA more often than vanilla, but the AC/LC predator seems increasingly poor in 6th for everyone. It was solid in 6th when there were piles of rhinos to take apart, but with that no longer being the case, they have kind of lost their primary purpose.

I used to run 2 in my BA lists for example, but I'd decided to shelf them in 6th. Well, I've shelved the whole BA codex, but none of my theory hammer lists and the very few games I have played with BA they haven't impressed. With triple-las preds costing the same as BA fast AC/LC preds now....well...yeah, they just don't stack up really.

BA don't have many other incredible heavy choices, unfortunately. What do you use for BA heavies in theoryhammer?

Thank you for the in depth feedback!

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't have many other incredible heavy choices, unfortunately. What do you use for BA heavies in theoryhammer?

Well, the games I've actually played with BA I've used AC/LC predators, and tested out my Storm Raven and have been really unimpressed. Considering they were stacked up against triple las chaos preds in cover with invisibility on them....it's hardly any surprise though.

My last couple of lists have been playing with double or triple vindicators....that's mainly because my friend gave me 2500+ points of his marines, including 2 additional vindicators to stack up with my other one. They support the more aggressive list I was trying to hammer out, but I was having issues with scoring troops and anti-aircraft and stuff with more than a 24" range.

I've got some free time tonight and a potential tourny in a few weeks, I'll see about throwing together a list on the rosters board and sending you a PM.

I'm pretty certain my AC/LC pred has killed more stuff than my Stormraven in the lists where I use both of them. I'm considering dropping the Stormraven and just forfeiting to helldrake lists. I really hate the Stormraven.

What about some drop pods? I don´t like running up to my enemy and rhinos blow up without any resistance... Then your close to your enemy and with the help of a flamer/plasma or two you might kill his banner early.

Ok guys. I appreciate the input but this is a C:SM thread, NOT a BA thread. Thanks.

tommse wrote:
What about some drop pods? I don´t like running up to my enemy and rhinos blow up without any resistance... Then your close to your enemy and with the help of a flamer/plasma or two you might kill his banner early.

Well, I have two, so I need to get a third so that two come down turn 1. But your are probably right, rhinos suck in 6th, so DP assault may be the way to go, and would put those sternguard where they need to be. And with locator beacons I could drop some termies on them too (instead of taking speeders)

Get rid of the land speeders and throw in some rifle dreads, thunder fire cannons or maybe some dakka terminators for giggles. Also, rethink whatever strategy you're using. Find your strengths and focus on those. Remember: Target priority. Take away his ability to out maneuver you first.

 SickSix wrote:
Ok guys. I appreciate the input but this is a C:SM thread, NOT a BA thread. Thanks.

tommse wrote:
What about some drop pods? I don´t like running up to my enemy and rhinos blow up without any resistance... Then your close to your enemy and with the help of a flamer/plasma or two you might kill his banner early.

Well, I have two, so I need to get a third so that two come down turn 1. But your are probably right, rhinos suck in 6th, so DP assault may be the way to go, and would put those sternguard where they need to be. And with locator beacons I could drop some termies on them too (instead of taking speeders)

So, It may sound strange but I run 1 Drop Pod quite frequently in smaller games (usually 1500). It usually has a 10 man squad of Sternguard with a Gate of Infinity/Null Zone libby in it, and I've run it against 6th CSM, DA, Eldar and Necrons with very good results.

A 10 man unit may be a little bit overpriced in a 1250 game, but you could give it a shot with the 5 you are already bringing. Unfortunately I don't know how well it would do in a 2v2 setting.

A second note, as others have mentioned, 6th Edition really made the TFC and Storm Talons (after the point reduction*) very valuable. I highly recommend at least the TFC's, I have yet to make a list without them and they ALWAYS pay for their point cost in games.