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I'm torn between Nurgle for resistance to small arms
Slanesh for the extra initiative and feel no pain banner
Or
Khorne for the close combat extras

What say you
(Running a blob of 20)

For CC?

Khorne.

Nurgle marks are too badly superseded by plagues.

Definitely Khorne if it's a CC unit. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!!

Kitted out, Khorne marnes are basically Zerkers with bolters without fearless for a few less points. Can't go wrong with them if you want to assault.

MoK.

So, it isn't actually that runaway of a choice, especially once you start talking about elites choices turned troops. 1ksons can't run, but they practically don't care about power weapons. They can tarpit anything and break it down with krak grenades or force weapons. PMs get poisoned AND FNP AND +T, which rather makes up for their -I, and likewise, noise marines get FNP and +I, which isn't exactly bad either.

But, of course, you're asking about marked CSM, not god warriors, and that rather makes a difference. A 6++ means that MoT marines still rather care about power weapons, and gaining the ability to run doesn't cover the gap (especially once you start talking about the lost sorcerers). MoN marines are still just as squishy against those things that really hate marines like plasma guns and other heavy weapons.

Slaanesh, oddly enough, is still mostly fine here, still having +I and FNP. All they really lose is fearless. Of course, you can't have fearless and FNP at the same time, at least without a babysitter, so that's a bit of a strike against them, but still, they can kill an awful lot, and aren't a terrible choice.

Which just leaves Khorne, and that one is a little strange. Yes berzerkers are... well... berzerk. They get WS5 S5 A4 on the charge, and they also get to reroll their charge range, which, given just how short of a game 40k is, I'd place more highly than FNP, I'd think, even if you don't always get much use out of it. And then when you drop them down to MoK CSM, they get to keep their S5 on the charge, and they get to keep their rerolls on charge range.

But the thing with khorne is that it's a little tricky. The current codex only makes them good on the charge, because without it, they just get +1A. That's still more A than MoS CSM, but it's not exactly a wowzer, given that slaanesh has FNP and +1I instead, and those work every turn you're not in close combat, and FNP also works against shooting, which FC never does. And be careful not to underestimate how much the +1I will keep marines alive. It's about as good as the WS5 from the berzerkers, except that we're talking about CSM here, not god warriors.

So at first glance, MoS are better than MoK in close combat, and in general situations, I'd actually agree. Give them bolters and chainswords and you've got a well-balanced, flexible unit that shoots well, chops well, and has FNP. Versatility and flexibility make it the better all-rounder, especially with their good CC abilities.

... that said, it's not a straight win for MoS, and for a few reasons.

Firstly, there's the champion. Yes, the power weapon swings faster with the MoS champ, but so what? You're going to be beating most things that a power sword can hurt anyways, even without it. Meanwhile, a squad of slaanesh with a lightning claw and some bolters and chainswords, while having good all-round killing power just has plain less killing power. Give the champ a fist, and suddenly you're causing ID against special characters armed with thunder hammers or powerfists of their own that could absolutely eat the rest of the squad alive. You're also way better against tanks, and against those annoying mid-tougness baddies like spawn and ogryn, and whatever. Give a fist to a slaanesh champ, and you gain nothing special from slaanesh, while MoK still gives you an extra attack, and makes it S9 on the charge, which is phenominal. You just can't get that kind of champ damage with MoS.

Then there are a few little things about it, like how MoK marines can pen rear armor AV10 with their chainswords, and how they can fire their bolt pistols and still have a more reasonable chance of getting the charge in, and how they can actually charge through terrain rather than being hideously hamstrung by it.

But then there's the bigger problem. That flexibility that makes MoS better in general makes them worse in close combat. Because you're going to give those MoS dudes some bolters and special weapons, and then you're going to start 14" away from an opponent one turn, and you're going to ask yourself whether you should shoot them, or charge them. And then you're going to think about that 8" charge you've got to make. And then you're going to shoot bolters. And then your opponent is going to charge you instead, and your MoS marines will still be good, what with FNP and the +I... but they won't be great.

Meanwhile, with MoK marines, the answer is easy - charge them. You've got the FC, and you've got the reroll. Heck, shoot AND charge them, why not? And MoK CSM on the charge are much, much better in close combat than MoS CSM not on the charge. It's those practical, on-table kinds of things that are going to make a khorne unit better than a slaanesh one here.

More importantly, there's the strategic impact of it all. With a well-balanced MoS unit, your strategy is going to be to get close in, and see how things go. With MoK, you're going to build your army to be an assault army. That or you're going to build your CSM to be an assault unit and build the rest of your army around it, and build your on-table strategy around that. You're going to hone a killer CC edge to everything if you just don't have a choice but to take a good CC unit and to try and get the charge in. If you don't, then you won't. And without that killer edge from top to bottom, your MoS CSM just aren't going to be as comprehensively good in close combat.

Now, if you have the discipline, you can make it work. You have to not take bolters (or if you do, have the discipline to use them only when you actually need them), and you have to build the rest of your list around those CSM getting the charge in or else dying horribly so that you'll have the right support for charging in, and the right disincentives for hanging back.

If you can't manage this, though, go khorne. Honestly, though, if you can't manage this, I wouldn't bother marking at all - I'd just run them naked with BP+CCW for cheaper.

Because for the price of 20 MoS CSM with FNP you can get 16 berzerkers with +1WS, +1S, +1A, fearless, and get to reroll your charge range. It's a hard argument to make for why a couple of extra dudes and FNP is going to be better than the amount of killing power you can put down even after a few extra casualties.

I'd rather not have rubric marines in assault, they're like...fire warrior level naff there for their points and they won't get to use their bolters. Cultists are what you want should you desire a tar pit (make sure to have someone to keep them from running away though.)

Zerkers in a Spartan always have a place in my heart though.

1ksons are practically space marines with storm shields and their sergeant gets a force weapon. That's far from firewarrior bad in close combat. Very, very far.

They may not be able to take the +A from a close combat weapon, but with that ++ and fearless, they're capable of tarpitting big, scary units for the entire game. While still beating up plenty of less-than-marine stuff.

Really, the only serious problem they have is the inability to run. If you can find a way around this, they're not the worst thing in the world in close combat.

Basic cheap CSM, supported by other units. Numbers.

I usally prefer MoS with Feel No Pain and a HQ to give them fearless. Even better are Noise Marines (did you say Doom Siren?), IMHO. They are the expensive, but i do prefer them even over berserkers, as they provide more tactical flexibility (good both in offense and defense, from cc and medium range thanks to theri bolters).

I5 means that 95% of the time either you strike first or at the very least together with the enemy. This, with Feel No Pain GREATLY increase their durability, as they'll be hit back by less attacks that will be resisted better.

Also Feel No Pain allows you to have a save from common weapon that usually doom MEQ, such as helldrake's baleflamer or plasma guns. And 5+ is not that bad, it means that every 3 models that should die, one will still leave. And this save can be taken every time you do not suffer instant death... regardless of high ap weapons or nasty rules (rending, bladestorm etc..).

Also MoK is good, but is quite "easy" to nullify if you are the enemy, you just have to charge them before they charge you. Even if you know that are going to lose the combat, it may happen that you know the following turn you'll be charged. At the very least you'll take less damage, which will maybe allow you to survive one turn more and tarpit those nasty berserkers.
MoS and FnP, on the other hand, works at its full even on the defensive side.

 Ailaros wrote:

But the thing with khorne is that it's a little tricky. The current codex only makes them good on the charge, because without it, they just get +1A.

Check your codex again. MoK gives Rage and Counterattack. Subsequent rounds of combat it does nothing.

That said I agree with you. When marking CSM into an assault role it's MoK all the way, that's not to say Slaanesh is a bad choice, just that Khorne is better.

Diablix wrote:

Also MoK is good, but is quite "easy" to nullify if you are the enemy, you just have to charge them before they charge you.

For which MoK has counterattack, nullifying your nullification. Add an Icon of Wrath and the Khorne CSM are rerolling their charge range, can the enemy say the same?

MarsNZ wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:


For which MoK has counterattack, nullifying your nullification. Add an Icon of Wrath and the Khorne CSM are rerolling their charge range, can the enemy say the same?

I think rerolling charge range is the best thing about Mok, makes going for those 8-10 inch charges decent odds, which gives them a huge reach.

Quick question: How rrolling charge distance..does it have to be both dice or can you reroll one and keep the other like fleet?

It lets you reroll the result, so both dice. Not quite as handy as fleet but not useless by a long shot.

 Ailaros wrote:
1ksons are practically space marines with storm shields and their sergeant gets a force weapon. That's far from firewarrior bad in close combat. Very, very far.

They may not be able to take the +A from a close combat weapon, but with that ++ and fearless, they're capable of tarpitting big, scary units for the entire game. While still beating up plenty of less-than-marine stuff.

Really, the only serious problem they have is the inability to run. If you can find a way around this, they're not the worst thing in the world in close combat.

The problem is their low number attacks per point, inability to use their bolters in overwatch, and that with the premium you pay for them you really want them to be shooting as often as possible (the mandatory sorcerer who costs nearly as much as his HQ version despite not being nearly as good, especially since they have to roll their one and only power on a disappointing table) and ultimately against mass of attacks they die like marines. They do have the upper hand against hard MeQ counters like power weapons and plasma guns, but piling on wounds makes Tzeentch sad.

Unfortunately a lot of things that like being in assault can and do pile on wounds. Striking Scorpions, Bezerkers, Death Company, Hormagaunts and gants, Boyz, Khorne cultists, Kriegers, Kroot, Canoptek units, Pretty much any Dark Eldar unit that wants to assault, etc.

Run them with no marks. 13 point MEQ models are really good. The statline and the armor makes that a good buy. Once you start throwing marks on them, the costs change them from being 'great buys' to 'meh'

Give them a lord to make the squad fearless. That will shore up their biggest weakenss. If you take Fabius, you can make 2 squads fearless (use his ability on squad A, and join him to squad B)

MarsNZ wrote:

For which MoK has counterattack, nullifying your nullification. Add an Icon of Wrath and the Khorne CSM are rerolling their charge range, can the enemy say the same?

Proably nullify was a bit too strong as a word, however you are forgetting that:
a) With counterattack you get only +1 attacks (this means that both sides will get +1 attacks instead of +2 for the CSM and +0 for the opponent)
b) You must pass a leadership test (which is NOT automatically passed even if fearless) so there is a chance that you won't get the +1 bonus (even if low).

MoS gives the same benefits both in attack and in defense, while MoK loses part of its efficiency while defending from an assault. This is even more true with berserkers as they will also lose they furious charge bonus.
I will always charge a unit with MoK if I know I can't escape from them. The benefit IMHO is greater than losing overwatch (and suffeir theirs). With MoS is situational. Of course this is just my humble opinion.

However please note that i NEVER said that MoS > MoK. I just said that I (me, myself) prefer MoS over MoK, explaining why. MoK stays a valid choice nevertheless.

Those are fair points - also with my Icon of Wrath example the standard CSM will lose FC as well, not just Bezerkers. Just pointing out that with the rerollable distance you can try for the slightly riskier charges knowing that your odds are slightly better.

I'm not trying to paint MoS as invalid, just that I'm more of the MoK persuasion. We can certainly agree both are far superior to MoN or the laughable MoT.

MarsNZ wrote:
Those are fair points - also with my Icon of Wrath example the standard CSM will lose FC as well, not just Bezerkers. Just pointing out that with the rerollable distance you can try for the slightly riskier charges knowing that your odds are slightly better.

I'm not trying to paint MoS as invalid, just that I'm more of the MoK persuasion. We can certainly agree both are far superior to MoN or the laughable MoT.

The MoK is solely for stabby units who are going to assault with an Icon that largely is for more stabbing while the MoS is good for units who are going to BE assaulted and when given the Icon also makes them pretty hardy.

The MoN is definitely a mark for shooty units (and has a rubbish Icon) and the MoT has no place on anything wihout an invulnerable save already, oh and it's Icon is also rubbish. I'm not sure if soul blaze has ever killed anything of value and virtually every army ever laughs at Fear.

MarsNZ wrote:

I'm not trying to paint MoS as invalid, just that I'm more of the MoK persuasion. We can certainly agree both are far superior to MoN or the laughable MoT.

I agree as long as we are talking about offensive CC units.
A defensive shooting unit can benefit from MoN, even though I'd go with Plague Marines.
Also MoT is not that laughable as long as you apply to units that already have a 5+ invulnerable save. However I do agree that in most cases there are better options than MoT, based on the role of the unit

Mathmatically, FNP Slaanesh and T5 Nurgle stand up to bolter rounds the same. At Str 5 you start to see T5 taking more wounds and anything AP2 does more wounds to nurgle than FNP MoS.

Of course, plague marines take fewer wounds than both except against vindicators, lol.

If you're doing a horde, consider taking the extra protection of MoS with the banner of Excess. You might not have as many attacks on the charge, but you'll live longer to charge with more marines.

If you're going mech, say some marines in a landraider, go MoK because they aren't as reliant on the mark to protect them as they charge across the field and would rather be able to reroll charge distances and do more damage when they hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you are planning on taking a particular character in your list perhaps you should mark this unit the same so that he can join them.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Run them with no marks. 13 point MEQ models are really good. The statline and the armor makes that a good buy. Once you start throwing marks on them, the costs change them from being 'great buys' to 'meh'

Give them a lord to make the squad fearless. That will shore up their biggest weakenss. If you take Fabius, you can make 2 squads fearless (use his ability on squad A, and join him to squad B)

I agree. 13 points for 2A MEQ isn't half bad at all.