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Universal Comparison Chart

..........1.....2.....3.....4.....5.....6.....7.....8.....9....10...11...12
.....1|4+...5+...5+...6+...6+...---...---....---...---....---...---....---
.....2|3+...4+...5+...5+...6+...6+...---....---...---....---...---....---
.....3|3+...3+...4+...5+...5+...6+...6+...---...---....---...---....---
.....4|2+...3+...3+...4+...5+...5+...6+...6+...---....---...---....---
.....5|2+...2+...3+...3+...4+...5+...5+...6+...6+...---...---....---
.....6|---....2+...2+...3+...3+...4+...5+...5+...6+...6+...---...---
.....7|---....---....2+...2+...3+...3+...4+...5+...5+...6+...6+...---
.....8|---....---....---....2+...2+...3+...3+...4+...5+...5+...6+...6+
.....9|---....---....---....---....2+...2+...3+...3+...4+...5+...5+...6+
...10|---....---....---....---....---....2+...2+...3+...3+...4+...5+...5+
...11|---....---....---....---....---....---....2+...2+...3+...3+...4+...5+
...12|---....---....---....---....---....---....---....2+...2+...3+...3+...4+

Down: Roller's Value
Across: Non-Roller's Value

This comparison chart allows for a wider range of all types of statistics while still somewhat maintaining healthy margins e.g. Eldar can be Resilience 3 but Power 5 weapons still wound on a 3+.

To Hit (Shooting): Compare roller's Marksmanship to target's Stealth
To Hit (Assault): Compare roller's Dexterity to target's Dexterity
To Damage: Compare roller's Power to target's Resilience
Take a Statistic test: Compare statistic to a value of 4

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model Statistics

Mobility (M) This characteristic defines the warrior's agility across the battlefield. Necron Warriors are maladroit machines, so they have a Mobility of 4, whilst Eldar Guardians flow across the battlefield gracefully and effortlessly like quicksilver; they have a Mobility of 8.

Marksmanship (Mk) Marksmanship portrays how accurate a warrior is with ranged weapons, from pistols to massive hull-mounted cannons. The higher the Marksmanship the model has, the more likely it is for its shots to find their mark. A well-trained sharpshooter such as a Vindicare Assassin has a Marksmanship of 9, unlike Ork Boys who are infamous for their incompetence at firing guns; they only have a Marksmanship of 3.

Stealth (S) This characteristic represents a warrior hidden in the shadows of cover and concealment, or perhaps a surging skimmer turbo-boosting across the battlefield. A furtive Eldar Ranger coursing through the woods is all but impossible to see with the human eye; they have a Stealth of 8. On the contrary, even an Ork can hit the massive shell of a Land Raider; it has a Stealth of 1.

Power (P) Power defines how physically mighty a warrior is, and the force at which he strikes. A feeble Guardman's blows is nothing compared to the immense strength of an Eldar Wraithknight!

Resilience (R) Resilience describes not only how tough a warrior's armour is but also how physically capable a warrior is at resisting pain and mortal wounds. A high Resilience might represent a valiant Space Marine Captain in artificer armour, or even a ravenous Tyranid Carnifex.

Dexterity (D) This characteristic conveys the skill and aptitude of a warrior in close combat. The higher the characteristic, the more adept the model is in combat. A clumsy Tau Fire Warrior has a Dexterity of 3 whereas an Avatar - an incarnation of the god of war - has a Dexterity of 12!

Attacks (A) This shows the number of strikes that a warrior can mount in a single round of close combat. Most warrior's can only make one swoop of the sword, however some legendary fighters such as Logan Grimnar can make five devastating blows in the blink of an eye.

Vitality (V) A warrior's Vitality tells us how capable he is after being wounded. Most infantry only have a Vitality of 1, nevertheless some monstrous creature can have 5 or more!

Fortitude (F) Fortitude characterises the willpower of the warrior. A warrior with a strong mind will not falter in the face of death unlike a Tyranid Hormagaunt who can sometimes suddenly decide to go back to the Hives!

Influence (I) This characteristic outlines how well the warrior interacts with his brethren, and how his presence affects his foes. Commanding characters raise the Influence of nearby warriors.

.............................................M..Mk...S..Sk...D...P...R....A....V....F...C
Space Marine.......................5....5....4....5....4....5....5....1....2....5....4
Imperial Guardsman............5....4....4....4....4....3....3....1....2....4....4
Tau Fire Warrior..................5....4....4....3....3....3....4....1....2....3....4
Eldar Guardian....................7....5....4....4....5....3....3....1....2....4....4
Ork Boy...............................5....2....4....5....3....4....4....2....2....3....4
Hormagaunt........................6....3....4....4....5....4....3....2....2....3....4
Necron Warrior...................4....5....4....4....3....5....5....1....2....7....4
Plaguebearer of Nurgle.......3....0....4....4....3....5....5....1....2....7....4

............................................Rg...P...A...Type
Lasgun.................................24...3...1...LaserRapid Fire
Boltgun.................................24...4...1...Rapid Fire
Flamer................................Tmp..4...1...Assault
Frag missile.........................48...4...1...Heavy, Blast
Heavy Bolter........................36...5...3...Heavy
Heavy Flamer.....................Tmp..5...1...Heavy
Ranger long rifle...................36...5...1...Sniper
Death spinner......................12...5...2...Assault, Monofilament
Shuriken cannon..................24...5...3...Assault, Bladestorm
Scatter laser........................36...5...4...Heavy, Laser Lock
Autocannon..........................48...7...2...Heavy
Battle cannon.......................72...7...1...Ordnance, Large Blast
Singing spear.......................12...7...1...Assault
Krak missile.........................48...8...1...Heavy
Starcannon...........................36...8...2...Heavy
Bright lance..........................36...9...1...Heavy, Lance
Plasma gun..........................24...9...1...Rapid Fire, Gets Hot
Meltagun..............................12...9...1...Assault, Melta
Lascannon...........................48..10..1...Heavy
Wraithcannon......................12..12..1...Assault, Distort

........................................M..Mk.S...P..R...D...A...V...F..C...Type
Scout...............................7...4...5...5...4...4...1...1...4...3...
Space Marine...................6...5...4...5...5...5...1...1...5...4...
Sergeant..........................6...5...4...5...5...5...2...1...6...5...
Terminator.......................4...5...3...6...7...4...2...1...6...4
Honour Guard...................6...5...4...5...6...5...2...1...7...6...
Chapter Champion...........6...5...4...5...6...6...3...1...8...7...
Chaplain...........................6...5...4...5...5...6...3...2...8...8...
Librarian...........................6...5...4...5...5...6...3...2...8...8...
Captain............................6...6...4...6...5...7...3...3...9...9...
Chapter Master................6...6...4...6...5...7...3...3...9...9...

............................................................[Armour]
..........................................M..Mk.S...[Fr..Sd..Rr]..HP...Type
Dreadnought.......................5...5...3...10..10...8.....3...
Drop Pod............................0...5...1...10..10..10....4...
Land Raider.......................5...5...1....12..12..12....5...
Land Speeder...................12...5...4....8....8....8.....3...
Predator.............................6...5...2....11...9....8....4...
Rhino..................................6...5...2....9....9....8.....4...

........................................M..Mk.S...P..R...D...A...V...F..C...Type
Guardian..........................8...5...4...3...3...5...1...1...4...4...
Ranger.............................8...5...6...3...3...5...1...1...4...4...
Windrider........................16..5...6...3...3...5...1...2...4...4...
Dire Avenger....................8...5...4...3...3...5...1...1...5...5...
Exarch..............................8...6...4...3...3...6...2...1...6...6...
Warlock...........................8...5...4...3...3...5...1...1...7...5...
Farseer............................8...5...4...3...3...5...1...3...9...6...
Autarch............................8...7...4...3...4...7...3...3...9...8...
Phoenix Lord...................8...8...4...4...5...8...4...3..10..9...
Avatar.............................8..12..3...7...7..12..5...5..10..8...


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Primary Phase:

Players take it in turns to move their units. Bonuses are given for moving units minimal distances or not moving them at all.

Secondary Phase:

Players take it in turns to operate their units, either by shooting, charging (charging now allows you to shoot a little bit as well) or fleeting.

[Always round up]
[Always play RAI]

Stealthy Relocation: In the Movement Phase, a unit may make a move at half their Mobility. A unit that does this gains +1 Stealth until the end of the opponent's next turn.
Run: In the Shooting Phase, a unit may make a move at half their Mobility. A unit that does this may not fire any of their weapons in that Shooting Phase.
Charge: In the Assault Phase, a unit may make a move directly towards a target within half their Mobility. A unit that does this gains +1 Dexterity until the end of the turn.
Snap Shot: If a model moves in the Movement Phase, it may only fire Heavy weapons at -4 Mk (down to a minimum of 1). This modifier is done after any positive modifiers.
Split Fire: If a model passes an Marksmanship test, it may fire at a target up to 12" away from the unit's original target. Up to than a third of a unit has the chance to Split Fire.

Amphibious: A model with this special rule counts water terrain as open terrain.
Fleet: A model with this special rule adds 1" to its Run and Charge distances.
Sharpshooter - A model with this special rule may reroll failed To Hit rolls in ranged combat.
Seasoned Marksman - A model with this special rule may allocate any wounds it causes in ranged combat however it wishes.
Nimble Fighter - A model with this special rule gains +1 Dexterity when being attacked in close combat.
And They Shall Know No Fear - A model with this special rule gains +1 Fortitude when rolling for morale checks.
Furious Charge - A model with this special rule gains +1 Power when it Charges into close combat.
Safeguard (X+): A model with this special rule may roll a D6 for every wound it suffers. On a (X+), the wound is ignored.
Tread Roam Walk Forest

Rapid Fire: If a model has a weapon with this special rule, it may fire another shot as long as the model didn't move in the preceding Movement Phase.
Pistol: If a model has a weapon with this special rule, it gains +1 Mobility. In close combat, the model may fire another shot at the its Dexterity.
Heavy: If a model has a weapon with this special rule, it suffers -1 Mobility and -1 Dexterity. Also, if the model moves in the Movement phase, it may only fire Snap Shots in the subsequent Shooting Phase.
Rending: If a model has a weapon with this special rule, any rolls To Hit that would still succeed if it had suffered -3 Marksmanship, the hit is resolved at +3 Power.
Sniper: If a model has a weapon with this special rule, any wounds it causes are doubled. Also, all Sniper weapons have the Heavy, Rending and Suppressing special rules.
Ordnance: If a model has a weapon with this special rule, Also, all Ordnance weapons have the Heavy special rule.
Blast: If a model has a weapon with this special rule, it does not roll To Hit. Instead, place a Blast template with the centre within the weapon's Range and over a model in the target unit. Then, roll a scatter die. If it shows a reticle, the Blast template does not move; it automatically hits all models with their bases fully or partially in the template's area. If it shows an arrow, the Blast template moves 2D6 minus the user's Marksmanship in the same direction as the arrow.
Template: If a model has a weapon with this special rule, it does not roll To Hit. Instead, place a teardrop template anywhere as long as the small end of the template is touching the muzzle of the weapon and no friendly models are caught under the template's area. It automatically hits all models with their bases fully or partially in the template's area.
Overheats: If a model fires a weapon with this special rule, roll a D6 before rolling To Hit. On a 1, the weapon has overheated - as well as firing, it also automatically inflicts a single hit on the user at the weapon's Power. If it has the Blast special rule too, place the marker over the user instead and resolve the shot like a normal Blast weapon (no scatter). If it is used two turns in a row it overheats on a 1, 2 or 3. If it is used three or more turns in a row it overheats on anything but a 6.
Barrage: If a model has a weapon with this special rule, it does not need a line of sight of the target to be able to shoot, but the model has to be within 4 x User's Influence of a model that has a line of sight of the target.
Poisoned (X): If a weapon has this special rule, it can reroll failed To Wound rolls of (X) or less.
Blind: If a weapon has this special rule, any hits it causes reduce the target's Marksmanship and Dexterity by 1 until the end of their next turn.
Concussive: If a model has a weapon with this special rule, any hits it causes in close combat reduces the target's Dexterity by 3.
Reveal (X): If a model has a weapon with this special rule, anything it chooses to shoot at suffers -(X) Stealth for that instance.

Psychic
Divination
Biomancy
Pyromancy
Necromancy
Geomancy
Aeromancy
Hydromancy
Psionics
Telepathy
Telekinesis
Clairvoyance - precognition prescience foresight

idk

Psychic test: If a psyker wants to manifest a psychic power, it must first take a psychic test. This is a Fortitude test. For this test, the psyker suffers -1 Fortitude for every enemy psyker on the board. If the test is passed, the psychic power is resolved. If failed, the psyker takes D3 S4 hits.

If passed, and the psychic power was directed at an enemy unit, the unit may roll To Negate the psychic power. The target's controlling player compares its Fortitude with the attacking psyker's Fortitude. The target unit gains +1 Fortitude for every friendly psyker within 6".

When trying to hit with friendly models in the way = 4+ extra roll
Within half range = -1 target's Stealth.
If a model is within 6" of a Character, it gains +1 Influence and +1 Fortitude
It a model is within 12" of an Independent Character, it gains +1 Influence and +1 Fortitude.
If a model is within 6" of an Independent Character, it gains +2 Influence and +2 Fortitude instead.

Area terrain and smoke: +1 Stealth
Ruins or Barricades: +1 Stealth +1 Resilience
Fortification: +2 Stealth +2 Resilience

Against infantry:
Forest, ruins or hills: 2/3 Mobility
River or marshland: 1/3 Mobility
Over low walls, hedges or fences: -1 Mobility
Through razor wire, or over a barricade or trench: -2 Mobility

Wire cutters (1pt/model): A model with this piece of wargear ignores razor wire.
Razor wire: A model that goes through razor wire takes one Power 2 hit.
Poisoned wire: A model that goes through poison wire takes one Power 2 hit.

Move through cover - halve negative terrain modifiers.
Climbing gear - no negative vertical modifiers.
Urban vehicle - ignore rubble modifiers.
Dozer blade - ignore wooded modifiers.
Amphibious - ignore water modifiers.
Ignore terrain - ignore all terrain modifiers.

-Bold: Every counter revealed to the opponent allows a single reroll that turn.
-Inspiring: Units within 6” may use the commander’s leadership.
-Stalwart: Models within 6” of an objective may reroll all 1’s for armor saves.
-Ravenous: The commander and their unit may add 1” to their charge distance.
-Cunning: The commander may redeploy either 3 friendly units 6” or 1 friendly unit 18”; remaining in their deployment zone.
-Clairvoyant: May look at a single enemy counter at the end of the command phase.
-Judicious: Units within 3” of an objective may reroll all 1’s to hit.
-Tenacious: The commander may redeploy either 3 enemy units 4” or 1 enemy unit 12”; remaining in their deployment zone.
-Unyielding: The warlord is scoring.
-Relentless: The warlord gains +1 Initiative when in the enemy’s deployment zone.
-Bloodthirsty: The warlord earns 1 victory point for every enemy character slain in a challenge.
-Sly: The warlord and their unit gain +1 stealth.

Dispatch The Traitor
Red-Handed
One With The Wild
Biological Brotherhood

Level 1: Split Fire!: The unit receives -1 Ballistic Skill. Up to half the squad may shoot at a different target.
Level 1: Let's Roll!: The unit receives +1 Fortitude and +2 Mobility. It may not shoot.
Level 1: Take Cover!: The unit receives +2 Stealth, -1 Dexterity and -2 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Level 1: Stay Put!: The unit receives +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Dexterity and -2 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Level 1: Overwatch!: The unit receives -2 Ballistic skill. All shots fired gain the Suppressing special rule. It may not move.
Level 1: Empty The Mag!: The unit receives -1 Dexterity. It may fire double the amount of shots, but may not shoot next turn. It must re-roll all successful hits (including close combat).

Level 2: Target Acquired!: The unit receives +2 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Level 2: Infiltrate!: The unit receives +3 Mobility and +1 Stealth. It may not shoot.
Level 2: Raid!: The unit receives +1 Mobility, +1 Weapon Skill and +1 Dexterity. It may not shoot.
Level 2:
Level 2: Sit Tight!: The unit receives +3 Stealth and +1 Dexterity. It may not move or shoot.
Level 2:

Level 3: Focus!: The unit receives +1 Ballistic Skill and +1 Weapon Skill. It may re-roll failed To Hit rolls (including close combat).
Level 3: Into The Fray!: The unit receives +3 Mobility, +1 Dexterity and +2 Fortitude.
Level 3: Arise!: The unit receives +1 Strength and +1 Defense. It removes all morale status effects and gains the Feel No Pain special rule.
Level 3: For The Fallen!: This command may only be issued when over half the unit has been killed. It receives +2 Attacks and gains the Fearless special rule.
Level 3:
Level 3:
Level 3: Stand Your Ground!:

The reason you only get one save is because otherwise it would hinder shooting far to much. This still has that problem. So if I am in a ruin and a squad of Marines wants to shoot me they need to hit me on a 6 then wound me then I get to make my armour save. That makes guys far too survivable. This simply doesn't work.

Well, I think it's a good idea, but it needs some tweaks:
1) Improve accuracy of shooting:
-No cover - +1 modifier
-Vehicle/MC- +1 modifier (because it's BIG)
-Less then 1/3 maximum weapon range - +1 modifier
-6+ - no modifier
-5+ -1
-4+ -2
-3+ -3
-2+ -4
BS 0 -> 6+ to hit, then 2+
BS -1 -> 6+ to hit, then 3+
BS -2 -> 6+ to hit, then 4+
BS -3 -> 6+ to hit, then 5+
2) Old system for blast weapons.

Hmm...that seems anecdotal, is that true for all situations? since the example I gave seems ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@mezmerro

Man you have some sweet stuff there, editing OP.

IcyFireKnight wrote:
Hmm...that seems anecdotal, is that true for all situations? since the example I gave seems ok.

It's not anecdotal, it's mathematical.

Take a Terminator, already pretty damned survivable. Stick a shield and thunderhammer on him. That's pretty sick survivability. Now stick him behind a chest-high wall and you suddenly not only need 4+ to wound and 6+ to penetrate armour (or 3+ if you're using some serious weaponry) but you also need 5+ or 6+ to hit him. That's 1 in 72 chance of killing him per shot. That means you need 36 tactical marines at 0-12" range in order to kill one single Terminator standing inside a ruin.

This idea always fall flat on it's nose because the game uses a triple save system (hit, wound and save) without modifiers on the latter two. It could go along with changing AP values to be modifiers on armour as well. You still have to keep in mind that this eschews the value of invulnerables which for some factions are fare too easy to get, and because one of those factions (space marines) happen to make up nearly half of the available armies doesn't really make a good foundation for what makes a seemingly light alteration to the rules. The to-hit mechanic, as bad as it is designed, is unfortunately at the foundation and can't be easily changed.

Yeah I have to think of all this, I know there will be gaping loopholes but for now it's a baby idea.

Oh, I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it's a very huge project that might end up changing the flow and balance of the game. But just slapping the to-hit modifiers on there isn't going to work.

A change like this would probably require strength of weapons to modify armour saves like in fantasy. Otherwise survive ability becomes a huge problem as everything would be too survivable. If cover affects BS strength should affect armour imo.

In the game a Space marine can be hit by a Manticore with no ill effect 2/3 of the time statistically. Whereas in logic the strength of the weapon would tear him apart inside. Causing organs to rupture. It doesn't need to get through the armour to kill. It would be blunt trauma and the strength of the impact would turn him to jelly. But in the game nothing. But oh wait its been said many times, common sense/logic and 40k don't mix. And fluff doesn't equal game. So what would happen in real life doesn't happen in game.

A change like this would require a whole entire rules re think most likely. Don't get me wrong I am not against the idea its just something that would need major play testing and a lot of thought going into it. If someone could find a way to make it work then it'd be great. It doesn't make sense that its you can't get both but it aslo doesn't make sense that its a save. Your plan adresses both those problems. and it would be more an internal balance of the game and the amount that would need to be changed to balance it out that is the problem.

EDIT: Also if when you play games you are taking both armour and cover saves I'd recommend not to because of the impact it will have on the balance of the game. And there's not much balance there anyway imo,

Thanks for the feedback.

Of course there will be things to address that have not been addressed but if we can't be bothered to give it a shot, we're just as good (or bad) as GW. I shall think about the paths we can take to rework Strength and AP.

And how does armour saves and cover saves affect the balance?

I think that AP is a bad mechanic. I think that an AP3 weapon would be better at penetrating 3+ armour, but why do AP4 and AP6 both do nothing? Surely AP4 would have a better chance of penetrating and thus making the armour save worse? Similarly an AP3 weapon should not be the same as an AP- weapon to a 2+ armour save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still pondering about strength and toughness. I don't know how I can deal with trauma weapons like hammers which don't need to break armour. Maybe have them ignore armour altogether?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's not only trauma weapons, but semi-trauma weapons. Some weapons don't have piercing bullets but instead have very hard bullets. I need to come up with something so that these sort of weapons have compensation for the lower AP.

Because strength is a damage threshold in WH40k unlike in WHFB, STR having an AP effect is poor design. In particular due to the fact that more modern weapons generally have disjunct damage and armour piercing potential (more to the point where armour piercing usually means less damage). WHFB uses a system where some weapons do more than 1 point of damage which is not reflected directly by pure STR.

Here's a suggestion, and keep in mind that this is just at it's most simple level.

Light cover (smoke, flimsy fenses, area terrain, etc) = concealment.
Dense cover (walls, ruins, mountains, tanks, wrecks) = concealment and entrenchment.
Jink = +1 penalty to hit.
Concealment = +1 penalty to hit.
Entrenchment = +1 penalty to hit.
Stealth = +1 penalty to hit.
Camouflage = +1 penalty to hit.
Go to Ground = +1 penalty to hit*
The difficulty here is whether to penalise someone needing 8+ to hit with having no chance of hitting or not. That would hurt Orcs to the point where they would be unable to hit stealthers. On the other hand, not allowing for worse-than-6+ to hit chances would nerf stealthers versus the spray and pray as well as snap fire variants of fire modes. Possible solution:
7+ = 6+ and then 4+ (Ex: a Storm Eagle being shot on by a Krak Missile*)
8+ = 6+ and then 5+
9+ = 6+ and then 6+
10+ = no chance. (Ex: an Eldar Pathfinder behind a ruin segment or similar being shot on by Snap Fire)
* Means you have to select whether to go to ground or evade PRIOR to resolving hits and damage.

Shield (any shield) = +1 armour save (a 1 is a failed save regardless of your save value)**
Force fields = no changed effect
AP- & AP6 = +0 penalty to save
AP5 = +1 penalty to save
AP4 = +2 penalty to save
etc.
AP1 = +5 penalty to save
This would mean that APX weapons still allow armour save X+ to take a 6+ save, which is a nerf, but on the other hand they are now more vulnerable to AP(n-X) weapons.

** This is a necessary nerf to SS+TH Termies.

Could do the numbers on this one but it is a bit late, suffice to say that this system would encourage *anyone* to seek refuge in cover regardless of what sort of bullets are being thrown their way. It could penalise terminators too much since they are very expensive, as well as monstrous creatures to a lesser extent since they have a hard time finding cover in the first place.

Please also note that the number of weapons which ignore cover really needs to be reduced. A suggestion would be to have the majority of models with "ignores cover" be "ignores entrenchment and go to ground" while other models would be "ignores concealment".
Examples:
(Eldar) Dark Reapers: ignores Jink
(CSM) Blast Masters: ignores entrenchment and go to ground
(Divination) Perfect Timing: ignores penalties to hit (does nothing to help it's poor name choice)
Templates: these aren't affected since they don't roll to hit.
Blasts: here's the thing. These always hit on a 5+ (or better) which is fairly stupid if you ask me. What if...
Hits on ballistics skill, if miss then scatters 1D6" unmodified. Indirect fire ignores concealment, go to ground and entrenchment, but shoots with BS1 and is always an option regardless of visibility. (Please note that it's not going to be easy to hit a very fast moving target, i.e. Jink, with an indirect fire weapon. If anything it's harder)

Check out the Grimdark Documents by Rabid; he's got a really smooth overhaul going on and it's extremely fun to play. It uses a very refined version of evasion and armor pen.

Mahtamori that's some sweet insight! I am iffy on the idea of splitting cover for some reason, it just seems quite complicated, aaalthough there are a lot of ignore cover weapons....MAYBE the ignore cover weapons can only ignore cover to a certain extent (also barrage shouldn't ignore cover) e.g. serpent shield: Assault D6+1, Pinning, Reveal 2 (ignores 2 points of cover) I just think your splitting cover idea is a bit too complicated. Maybe it's necessary.

Also your AP idea brought out some other things but I wanted it to be on a scale of 1-10 to allow for a wider variety of APs.

Your blast idea is absolutely great i.e. blast weapons lower your ballistic skill, and if you don't hit you scatter 2D6 (just D6 is not enough)

And the indirect fire vs. Jink....strengthens your idea of types of cover. Maybe there could be just a few types of cover like Jink, Concealment and Entrenchment. Then have levels of that. So a Shrouded unit would have Concealment 2

Hey Chris can you point me to it? the page I found just had rewritten codices. thx!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And ruins would give Concealed 1 and Entrenched 1!

IcyFireKnight wrote:
Mahtamori that's some sweet insight! I am iffy on the idea of splitting cover for some reason, it just seems quite complicated, aaalthough there are a lot of ignore cover weapons....MAYBE the ignore cover weapons can only ignore cover to a certain extent (also barrage shouldn't ignore cover) e.g. serpent shield: Assault D6+1, Pinning, Reveal 2 (ignores 2 points of cover) I just think your splitting cover idea is a bit too complicated. Maybe it's necessary.

Also your AP idea brought out some other things but I wanted it to be on a scale of 1-10 to allow for a wider variety of APs.

Your blast idea is absolutely great i.e. blast weapons lower your ballistic skill, and if you don't hit you scatter 2D6 (just D6 is not enough)

And the indirect fire vs. Jink....strengthens your idea of types of cover. Maybe there could be just a few types of cover like Jink, Concealment and Entrenchment. Then have levels of that. So a Shrouded unit would have Concealment 2

Hey Chris can you point me to it? the page I found just had rewritten codices. thx!


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And ruins would give Concealed 1 and Entrenched 1!

That's the one. If you check, there's a rulebook - Grimdark Documents - that goes with them. So far there's Tau, Space Marines, Tyranids, and Chaos - but the system is solid and easily capable of supporting 40K's current range of interactions, and a lot more.

Now you're just discouraging me from this!

No but really that seems really polished, albeit practically a different game with the same models....I like it. This might even encourage me to make a sister type! I do like the stance he's taken; I might try it too!. Except that guy has put 500 times more time and effort You know what? I will read this whole thing and change what I want to change, and see if people like it. Thank you chris.

All of this sounds like a very interesting idea. At the moment it doesn't work amazingly... As the others have stated. But I have never liked how you only get one save, surly standing in a ruin with a shield and armour shoul drake them hard to kill. But not as hard to kill as you suggested haha.

I want to briefly talk about a necessary implication of a change like this for balance that I think often goes undiscussed when people are trying to come up with rules for modifiers of various sorts. Here I'm just going to talk about how BS and to-hit modifiers for cover interact, but something similar could be said about any similar stat and modifier system.

Modifiers like this necessarily make some units, by virtue of having certain natural BS values, better at particular kinds of shooting than other units for their points (if the game is to be balanced and if all units are shooting units that are otherwise similar).

This is a problem some people have with the current method for resolving snap shots in 40k. They complain that Orks are really good at snap shooting, because they only suffer a 50% reduction in accuracy while Marines suffer a 75% reduction in accuracy. If Ork and Marine shooting is balanced, Orks are often going to find snap shooting to be a worthwhile thing to do while Marines will rarely find it a useful thing to do. Orks are better at snap shooting for their points.

A system like the one proposed here basically creates the opposite situation. Everyone suffers a -2 penalty to BS for shooting into light cover of various sorts, barring special rules that let them ignore cover of that type. Marines only score 25% fewer hits when no other modifiers are in play. A BS5 model, however, scores 33% fewer hits. And a BS3 model scores 50% fewer hits.

So Marines are really good at shooting at things in cover relative to models with lower BS. To be balanced, they must be priced with this capability in mind - all Marines effectively have a weaker version of Ignores Cover (that applies to all types of cover) relative to lower-BS shooters. These lower-BS shooters must be more efficient than Marines when shooting models outside of cover.

Is this a situation you intended to create?


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Let me try to put that another way:

We like that Strength and Toughness interact via an opposed test. We /want/ high-Strength weapons to be inefficient against low-Toughness targets.

You don't want the BS of the firer to determine what sort of armor saves he's good against. A high-BS firer should be just as much better than a low-BS firer against 2+ saves as against 6+ saves. That's why we don't want an opposed test here - we use two separate rolls instead.

What you're doing is making the BS of a firer determine the sorts of cover saves he's good against. Just like a high-Strength weapon is inefficient against low-Toughness targets, a high-BS firer is inefficient against models with poor cover saves.

It was the situation I tried to create, although now I see your point.

Maybe for the situation of Snap Shots, make it so that Snap Shots half your BS (round up) so that a Marine with a BS of 7 would go to BS4, a 5+. Whereas an Ork, with a BS of 4, would go to BS2, a 6+. So higher BSs suffer from Snap Sots more. Maybe we can incorporate this concept into other ruling.

"What you're doing is making the BS of a firer determine the sorts of cover saves he's good against. Just like a high-Strength weapon is inefficient against low-Toughness targets, a high-BS firer is inefficient against models with poor cover saves." Is the situation you intend to create one where you want your clumsy Shootas to be firing at targets with cover saves simply because an accurate marksman receives a higher penalty. I wouldn't want it that way.

I'm trying to say it isn't the percentage of their original BS to the modified BS that counts, it doesn't matter about that, it would be better if it were a flat modifier (this engrish), unless you want lower BSs to be better. I don't know, which is the better situation?

Small notes
pantsonhead: the current system isn't very accurate either. It's got one single thing going for it and that is that it's the canon. The canon system strongly favours units that are cheap and bad at shooting (Orks) because they are penalized less in Snap Fire than a BS10 model... and for the models with the necessary ignores that GW has failed to price.

IceFireKnight: glad you liked it
Keep in mind that a Tau Fire Warrior is short-sighted. They are naturally bad shots and the only reason that they are not BS2 currently is their training and natural aptitude (unlike humans, Tau soldiers are filtered by genetical and social filters). This is also the reason why Tau compensates so very much for their physical shortcomings with technology. Races like Space Marines (who are no longer human) and more to the point Eldar do not have physical shortcomings and also train to make what is worst case scenario above average into excellance.

And yes, fluff does matter. Points compensate for it

Ah now I know that about Tau. Thanks! Any feedback on the current OP?

First off: is this a 10-point system? Does it have a cap? If a basic Guardian can have 7 points of markmanship, how high would an Avatar be?

Now,
Stealth - initial abbreviation had this as S but later you use St
Additionally, if you use a system where models have individual to-hit values, which I recommend you don't for game flow reasons, then it becomes hard to believe that a hulking Space Marine in a noisy armour have the same stealth value as a highly refined Trueborn Dark Eldar experienced hunter snob.
I'd instead recommend that you base this off of base size.

Armour:
Let's talk technology. And I'm going to go off on a rant about the stupidity of the 40k fluff. Sorry, comes from reading high quality Sci-fi I guess.
Going by logic and historical technological advancement advanced races like Eldar and Necron aren't going to need anywhere near the same armour thickness. If you actually read the fluff and ignore the idiotic statements like "this is made of the second strongest material in the galaxy and no one else has access to it" bs, then it will become believable that Eldar Guardians have armour which is agile and half an inch thick with the same effective protective value of a Power Armour. And let's not talk about Necrons which you *really* shouldn't paint metalic.
Phew. Now to the point.
I don't have a point. Not here. Next section will have the point.

The chart:
For Armour - You have aimed at AP3 being the default AP. At the same time you've bumped the lasgun down to AP1. This means that Power Armour and more interestingly Carapace Armour equivalents (Eldar Aspects, Tau, Kasrkin etc) Terminator equivalent against lasguns. Essentially I don't think the chart is very appropriate for armour.
For everything else - The chart is really generous in favour of the roller. It all depends on how many modifiers are put into place, of course, but it feels... eschewed.

Space Marines:
Movement - these guys when in their Power Armour aren't all that much slower than a standard human. Compared to a standard human, that Power Armour will actually enhance their ability to move contrary to the bulky and unrefined Flak Armour that Imperial Guardsmen wear.

Tau and Imperial Guard:
These are really the guys which should have the standardized statline. Tau are slightly worse at melee, but are otherwise very similar to Imperial Guard.
Oh, and Tau have carapace armour equivalent.

Orks:
These are very competent in melee. Dexterity value should be higher.

Eldar:
With a larger range you can pop up the value one point to differentiate it from IG - unless the value has turned around to being the value you need to beat

Melee weapons:
Try to avoid sticking the attack values on the weapons. Leave that for psychic/magic/tech weapons.

P.S. I borrowed the way to handle blasts from Warmachine. While Warmachine is a 2D6 system and the scatter template makes it easier to handle than the analogue scatter dice, the actual scatter mechanic is sound.
I was originally going to say "Indirect Fire allows you to shoot at someone you don't see, but you'll auto-miss" until I remembered the small marker indirect fire weapons becoming totally redundant since that system would mean you can't hit a 2,5cm based model at all (or close enough).

Thanks again! I was also a bit concerned of the chart's uses and abuses. I don't know, what would you say to the standard chart of strength vs toughness right now?

And all you've talked about there I shall modify. Check the stats again!

I like the STR vs TOUGH chart, personally, and would love to see it used in melee as well, regardless of system. I do think that you need to consider whether the difficulty to hit should be a stat or simply a penalty modifier on certain models (Heavy vehicles come to mind - i.e. Land Raiders, Monoliths and larger)

The main thing I would do to streamline Grimdark (excellent work BTW.)Would be to use stat lines directly in comparison.Rather than using a separate table.

But I believe Rabid wanted to keep the resolution similar to 40k but much better defined and more intuitive.Which I think has been done very well by all those fine tuning the Grimdark rules and Codexes.
(I am out of touch with the current 40k canon and meta, so fine detail is not my strong point. )

However, I could offer some basic ideas that negate the need for ANY charts in the resolution.(Just use a FEW simple modifiers.)
If that would be useful /helpful?

I will try to see if a Strength/Toughness chart would work. But it wouldn't allow for so much variety. Do you know why an S/T chart would/wouldn't work? If it were a S/T chart, then I would use the Grimdark one. But for me it feels like it is too cramped; as in, 1 point of difference means so much, e.g. a 3+ save to a 2+ save. Is this a good thing?.. I'm afraid I can't work on this until I know which chart is better. Seems like Grimdark stole the show and I just suck.

Lanrak, What do you mean using stat lines directly in comparison?

Edit: Lanrak, check convo with Rav1rn.