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BS front sides rear HP Void Shields points
4 14 14 13 30 10 3650
Special Rules: Reactor Meltdown, unable to shoot targets closer than 24 inches Pushing the Reactor
Wargear: Dark Age Nova cannon, Volcano cannon, 2X Turbo Lasers
Pushing the Rector: The crew of this millennia old defender of the imperium will push the power of the reactor to it's very limits when necessary. During your shooting phase, declare if you will be overheating the ancient reactor and for how many weapons. Nominate the first weapon and roll a D6, on a 2+ the reactor succeeds and grants a re-roll to hit. Continue doing this for the number of declared weapons, nominating the weapon desired each time. However, the increased taxation on the reactor means that each additional weapon increases the chance of failure by one, i.e., a 3+, then a 4+ and so on. Failure means D3 void shields and D3 hull points damage and inability to push for any more rerolls.
Dark Age Nova Cannon: 15inch blast, S: D inner 5 inches, S: 9 AP:2 6-10inches outwards, S:8 AP:4 outer 5 inches ( I don't know if this needs get's hot at this point )
Negative criticism is fine if you say what you don't like. It's literally that simple. Read the entire first post & before posting read all posts.
It should be noted that this is a work in progress at this point & saying you do or don't like it does not help in any way to improve the concept, say WHAT you do or don't like.
Saying something is overpowered is not in any way helpful, this is apocalypse and point per durability this is basically the same as the warlord.
The first posting of this went the wrong way due to a variety of problems, & I've reposted it with a bit of a perspective from what went wrong last time.
Edit: I have changed SP to HP.
Edit 2: Added Push the Reacor. Thanks motyak Thanks Blacksails for the impressive rule description

It shouldn't have 10 Void shields, seeing as that's 4 more than the normal Warlord. One more, two at most.

For ease of your opponent, I believe you should use normal weapons available to the Warlord (which would upgrade your carapace weapons to Double-barreled turbo lasers), and to simulate the technology, just give it a re-roll or something.

This way, you avoid two things. The first being confusion. You or your opponent don't have to remember and figure out the different radius sizes and their damage. The second is that its significantly easier to balance using existing profiles and simply adding a normal ability.

Hell, just do this instead.

Ancient Technology Never Forgets (or something): This warlord blah blah blah (fluff and such). This grants the Warlord the ability to re-roll to hit a single weapon of the player's choosing every turn.

Boom.

Clean, simple, and you can use the weapons listed in the normal Warlord's entry.

So it'd have 2x Double Barreled Turbo Lasers in the carapace, a Volcano Cannon...and something else. Like a Titan CCW or a Quake Cannon.

Oh, and if you plan on posting here in the future, I recommend you don't have that paragraph about what you want/expect. Just say 'Comments and critique please', and people will provide it. Your opening paragraph doesn't give a particularly warm and fuzzy or inviting feeling.

Why do your rules mix Apocalypse editions?

Also I agree with Blacksails both on his simpler rules approach and that you need to dial back your sensitivity .

Why have you kept the 15" str D gun despite every single poster in the last thread telling you to remove/ change it?

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Why have you kept the 15" str D gun despite every single poster in the last thread telling you to remove/ change it?

Because it has been changed significantly. This is why no one has made negative comment of it. Only 1/9 of the blast is S: D dude you gotta read.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jackmojo wrote:
Why do your rules mix Apocalypse editions?

Also I agree with Blacksails both on his simpler rules approach and that you need to dial back your sensitivity .

10 structure points= 30 HP. You can just do the math yourself.

He shouldn't have to do the math himself, and neither should your opponent. Stick to the one edition when you are writing rules, its just common sense.

And as with last thread I agree with blacksails on all points. But if you really really want a special weapon then a CCW with a boost of some kind is far simpler than your cannon. Perhaps something along the lines of the nemesis great sword? Re-roll hit wound and armour pen. And you could keep blacksail's reroll rule on shooting too

 motyak wrote:
He shouldn't have to do the math himself, and neither should your opponent. Stick to the one edition when you are writing rules, its just common sense.

And as with last thread I agree with blacksails on all points. But if you really really want a special weapon then a CCW with a boost of some kind is far simpler than your cannon. Perhaps something along the lines of the nemesis great sword? Re-roll hit wound and armour pen. And you could keep blacksail's reroll rule on shooting too

It's multiples of 3....how long does that take for the human brain to process and calculate that, bout a few nanoseconds?
What kind of special CCW do you propose.
10 void shields fluff wise is justified when dealing with a dark age titan, and you pay for it with an extra 1000 points.
The Reroll rule is very modest, and along with 2 void shields and a SP not at all worth 1000 points. It should be about 650-700 points with those changes. I play apocalypse to have fun and this is the kind of centerpiece unit that the opponent tries to off the first turn, not something that hurts the army by being there. Let's all remember even an imperator can fall very easily to 2 groups of well placed fire dragons. The rule changes aren't representative of something from the Dark Age with AI's that have actual warp presence

It doesn't matter if it was multiples of anything, the thing is that it is an old edition. I'll direct the same point back at you, it's multiples of 3, how hard is it for you to fix it up in the OP?

And I reckon rerolling everything is quite a boost, and I'm sure many would agree. No more rolling that unlucky 1 to wound on a character, or a 4 when you needed a 5 to pen the LR you are attacking.

 motyak wrote:
It doesn't matter if it was multiples of anything, the thing is that it is an old edition. I'll direct the same point back at you, it's multiples of 3, how hard is it for you to fix it up in the OP?

And I reckon rerolling everything is quite a boost, and I'm sure many would agree. No more rolling that unlucky 1 to wound on a character, or a 4 when you needed a 5 to pen the LR you are attacking.

I'ts a single reroll for one weapon. It might be cool if it was for all weapons.

You have access to a reroll for the other weapons once a turn.

You could make it almost a gets hot sort of thing, with them able to push the reactor harder and harder to get more rerolls (obviously never rerolling something more than once). So fire one carapace weapon, reroll with your free one, fire other carapace weapon, push for a reroll, on a 2+ you are fine, fire arm weapon, push for a reroll, on a 3+ you are fine, that sort of thing, with it steadily getting more and more unreliable.

A failure could mean D3 Void Shields immediately lost, 1 HP, weapon you are pushing too hard unable to fire next turn, something like that.

Meanwhile your CCW gets free rerolls for everything, making it more reliable and highlighting how the sword/mace/fist/whatever is a super fancy piece of Dark Age tech

 motyak wrote:
It doesn't matter if it was multiples of anything, the thing is that it is an old edition. I'll direct the same point back at you, it's multiples of 3, how hard is it for you to fix it up in the OP?

And I reckon rerolling everything is quite a boost, and I'm sure many would agree. No more rolling that unlucky 1 to wound on a character, or a 4 when you needed a 5 to pen the LR you are attacking.

Point taken: Fixed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 motyak wrote:
You have access to a reroll for the other weapons once a turn.

You could make it almost a gets hot sort of thing, with them able to push the reactor harder and harder to get more rerolls (obviously never rerolling something more than once). So fire one carapace weapon, reroll with your free one, fire other carapace weapon, push for a reroll, on a 2+ you are fine, fire arm weapon, push for a reroll, on a 3+ you are fine, that sort of thing, with it steadily getting more and more unreliable.

A failure could mean D3 Void Shields immediately lost, 1 HP, weapon you are pushing too hard unable to fire next turn, something like that.

Meanwhile your CCW gets free rerolls for everything, making it more reliable and highlighting how the sword/mace/fist/whatever is a super fancy piece of Dark Age tech

That's actually really friggin cool!!! I'm adding that when I get back from the gym. It'll of course add 100-150 to the points cost.

And probably add that if it fails you can't keep pushing, for example if you fail on the 2+ you can't try for the 3+ because it has already overheated/whatever it does

Just a little more...(so to speak) This ancient warlord (insert fluff and stuff). During your shooting phase, declare if you will be overheating the ancient reactor and for how many weapons. Nominate the first weapon and roll a D6, on a 2+ the reactor succeeds and grants a re-roll to hit. Continue doing this for the number of declared weapons, nominating the weapon desired each time. However, the increased taxation on the reactor means that each additional weapon increases the chance of failure by one, i.e., a 3+, then a 4+ and so on.

If any of the rolls fail, you may no longer roll for any additional weapons, and the titan removes D3 of its Void Shields or D3 Hull Points if the shields are down. Resolve this after the shooting.



Its hard to word this kind of rule. I really think you should have to declare how much your going to tax the reactor before you start rolling, as it really gives it that legitimate gamble. You go for broke and try on all of them, or just try for two, which would likely succeed. Frankly, it'd also be more fun this way as I'd enjoy watching my opponent gamble on how many re-rolls he wants that turn.

And I'd seriously cap the durability upgrade at 3 hull points (1 SP, whatever it is now) and one void shield, two at most. Again, 3500pts for the ability to re-roll stuff, and a bit of added durability is totally fine. Think of it as the custom unit tax. Better it be slightly underpowered/overcosted than the other way around.

 Blacksails wrote:
Just a little more...(so to speak) This ancient warlord (insert fluff and stuff). During your shooting phase, declare if you will be overheating the ancient reactor and for how many weapons. Nominate the first weapon and roll a D6, on a 2+ the reactor succeeds and grants a re-roll to hit. Continue doing this for the number of declared weapons, nominating the weapon desired each time. However, the increased taxation on the reactor means that each additional weapon increases the chance of failure by one, i.e., a 3+, then a 4+ and so on.

If any of the rolls fail, you may no longer roll for any additional weapons, and the titan removes D3 of its Void Shields or D3 Hull Points if the shields are down. Resolve this after the shooting.



Its hard to word this kind of rule. I really think you should have to declare how much your going to tax the reactor before you start rolling, as it really gives it that legitimate gamble. You go for broke and try on all of them, or just try for two, which would likely succeed. Frankly, it'd also be more fun this way as I'd enjoy watching my opponent gamble on how many re-rolls he wants that turn.

And I'd seriously cap the durability upgrade at 3 hull points (1 SP, whatever it is now) and one void shield, two at most. Again, 3500pts for the ability to re-roll stuff, and a bit of added durability is totally fine. Think of it as the custom unit tax. Better it be slightly underpowered/overcosted than the other way around.

Slightly anything isn't bad when dealing with friends and neighbors. A custom unit tax? Custom units have been a part of 40k for a long time they're not some kind of privledge. If your opponent agrees that's all it takes. The durability is justified fluff wise and it's not significantly undercosted, it might be overcosted to some people.
That's pretty good wording for the special rule, Thanks.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Slightly anything isn't bad when dealing with friends and neighbors. A custom unit tax? Custom units have been a part of 40k for a long time they're not some kind of privledge. The durability is justified fluff wise and it's not significantly undercosted, it might be overcosted to some people.
That's pretty good wording for the special rule, Thanks.

Custom units are pretty much a privilege when you consider you'd only ever use them with close friends and would require advance permission and a look over the rules first. Well, at least in my group it was. I'm doubtful you'd show up to a random game with someone you've maybe played against once or twice with a custom marine HQ that he's never seen before.

Sure, people have made custom units/rules/houserules since 40k first started. It doesn't make them anything less than a privilege though. I'm sure most people would agree that in order to use a custom unit they'd want their opponent to ask first and have a good long look through the rules and costing. The same would apply here.

The custom unit tax is a sometimes referred to unwritten rule where you should always err on the side of overcosted/underpowered when its not clear what a certain ability should cost. For example, if I wanted my marine HQ to have a master-crafted plasma pistol, it'd cost +15pts for the pistol, as established in the codex, and master-crafting is normally in the 10pts ballpark for a lot of weapons. So the upgrade would be 25pts, and it'd be rather clear. Something like hull points or void shields have no real obvious pattern to their cost or agreed upon formula. Its really just an increasing scale that doesn't quite add up when you factor in the weapons, mobility and other rules. So in situations like this where its not clear what an upgrade should cost, its best to make it overcosted for what it does.

Ergo, having 3 extra hull points and an extra void shield (two tops), plus the re-rolling, and an increase in WS is worth somewhere between 500pts and 1000pts. Now, we can argue until we're blue in the face over whether it should 650 or 725, or whatever arbitrary number, but its just so much easier to round up to 3500pts and accept that it may be slightly underwhelming for its cost.

Now, I say underwhelming in a relative term. Its still a freaking Warlord titan, and it'll still dish out quite a bit of pain.

As always, feel free to take what part of that post you want and ignore the parts you dislike, but I'm just explaining to it as though I was going to play against this. Honestly, I prefer characters that are made for 100% fluffy reasons and perform less than what I could get from codex characters because it makes the game that bit of an extra fun challenge, and you get attached to your little buddy running around and enjoy his every exploit. Your opponent will like it too, as its not seen as a huge threat compared to some of the more broken codex options. Its a win-win scenario for all.

Custom units should be made first and foremost for fluff reasons, and secondly to have something fun. Making it balanced or competitive should be priority, like, 5.

The warlord you have with Motyak's reactor rule, an extra structure point (3 HPs) and an extra void shield with WS4 is exactly that. A fun, unique unit that everyone would be interested in playing with or against.

At the end of the day, what's the worst thing that can happen? You run it as a normal warlord and there are no problems.

 Blacksails wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Slightly anything isn't bad when dealing with friends and neighbors. A custom unit tax? Custom units have been a part of 40k for a long time they're not some kind of privledge. The durability is justified fluff wise and it's not significantly undercosted, it might be overcosted to some people.
That's pretty good wording for the special rule, Thanks.

Custom units are pretty much a privilege when you consider you'd only ever use them with close friends and would require advance permission and a look over the rules first. Well, at least in my group it was. I'm doubtful you'd show up to a random game with someone you've maybe played against once or twice with a custom marine HQ that he's never seen before.

Sure, people have made custom units/rules/houserules since 40k first started. It doesn't make them anything less than a privilege though. I'm sure most people would agree that in order to use a custom unit they'd want their opponent to ask first and have a good long look through the rules and costing. The same would apply here.

The custom unit tax is a sometimes referred to unwritten rule where you should always err on the side of overcosted/underpowered when its not clear what a certain ability should cost. For example, if I wanted my marine HQ to have a master-crafted plasma pistol, it'd cost +15pts for the pistol, as established in the codex, and master-crafting is normally in the 10pts ballpark for a lot of weapons. So the upgrade would be 25pts, and it'd be rather clear. Something like hull points or void shields have no real obvious pattern to their cost or agreed upon formula. Its really just an increasing scale that doesn't quite add up when you factor in the weapons, mobility and other rules. So in situations like this where its not clear what an upgrade should cost, its best to make it overcosted for what it does.

Ergo, having 3 extra hull points and an extra void shield (two tops), plus the re-rolling, and an increase in WS is worth somewhere between 500pts and 1000pts. Now, we can argue until we're blue in the face over whether it should 650 or 725, or whatever arbitrary number, but its just so much easier to round up to 3500pts and accept that it may be slightly underwhelming for its cost.

Now, I say underwhelming in a relative term. Its still a freaking Warlord titan, and it'll still dish out quite a bit of pain.

As always, feel free to take what part of that post you want and ignore the parts you dislike, but I'm just explaining to it as though I was going to play against this. Honestly, I prefer characters that are made for 100% fluffy reasons and perform less than what I could get from codex characters because it makes the game that bit of an extra fun challenge, and you get attached to your little buddy running around and enjoy his every exploit. Your opponent will like it too, as its not seen as a huge threat compared to some of the more broken codex options. Its a win-win scenario for all.

Custom units should be made first and foremost for fluff reasons, and secondly to have something fun. Making it balanced or competitive should be priority, like, 5.

The warlord you have with Motyak's reactor rule, an extra structure point (3 HPs) and an extra void shield with WS4 is exactly that. A fun, unique unit that everyone would be interested in playing with or against.

At the end of the day, what's the worst thing that can happen? You run it as a normal warlord and there are no problems.

Fair enough. To have you know w/ the awesome special rule the titan currently sits at 3650 points. Again not significantly undercosted by more than a hundred points or so if at all.
I have a reaver powerclaw lying around and the model I'm using is the Titan Manafactorum Warlord.
I would love to have a cool CCW instead of the volcano cannon. Anyone have any great ideas?

This has yet to be resolved.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
This has yet to be resolved.

What do you mean by 'resolved'? That's a really weird thing to say, to be honest. This is thread #2 for the same idea, both of which have received more help than a lot of proposed threads on this board.

Further to that, the help you received was not only solid, it literally gave you a functioning balanced set of rules that were adherent to the fluff and not particularly overpowered. I'm sure most people would agree the following is a refined, fully fleshed out design usable on a board;

Dark Age Warlord of Dark Age-ness of Super Special Origins and Stuff

WS BS S F S R I A
4 4 10 14 14 13 1 3

30 Hull Points
7 Void Shields

2x Double Turbo Lasers mounted on each side of the titan in the upper carapace
1x Volcano Cannon on the left (right) arm
1x Titan CCW

Special Rules
Reactor Meltdown: As per the Warlord rules
Towering Monstrosity: As per the Warlord rules
Just a little more...: This ancient warlord (insert fluff and stuff). During your shooting phase, declare if you will be overheating the ancient reactor and for how many weapons. Nominate the first weapon and roll a D6, on a 2+ the reactor succeeds and grants a re-roll to hit. Continue doing this for the number of declared weapons, nominating the weapon desired each time. However, the increased taxation on the reactor means that each additional weapon increases the chance of failure by one, i.e., a 3+, then a 4+ and so on.

If any of the rolls fail, you may no longer roll for any additional weapons, and the titan removes D3 of its Void Shields or D3 Hull Points if the shields are down. Resolve this after the shooting.

3500pts.

Simple. Clean. Fluffy. Fun. Balanced, erring on the side of underpowered/overcosted, but being that its an Apoc unit, its so hard to tell anyways that its largely irrelevant.

Granted, you could keep bumping this ad infinitum to get feedback that matches closer to what you want out of this unit. But saying something like 'this isn't resolved yet' is just, well...plain weird. Feels like a conference or meeting that we're obligated to file some TPS report with the proper cover page or something.

What I meant was that the design wasn't finished 100%.
The help was very good, I never said it wasn't.
I still wanted a cool CCW to use instead of the volcano cannon.

Eww this model's blast is going to be a nightmare to resolve.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

I still wanted a cool CCW to use instead of the volcano cannon.

Hmm, could cop something from Adeptus titanicus...how about the old wrecking ball?

Lessee I'd make it a modifier to the Stomp attack, say d3 Large blasts and they increase the str from 6 to 10 (and still remove everything on a 6).

Need to playtest that to decide on cost, bit wonky to ball park with out experimentation.