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So everyone knows the Swarmlord is supposed to be the nastiest thing in close combat ever, barring daemon lords & primarchs, who effortlessly handed Big Papa Smurf his butt on a silver platter, and then massacred the first company alone. He's also incredibly expensive for what he does, to being almost unusable. Let's change that.
WS BS S T W I A LD SV Points
9 3 6 6 6 6 5 10 2+ 315 (upped)
Biomorphs: Bone Sabres (unchanged), Regeneration(new), Armored Shell (new), Acid Blood (new)
Special Rules: Psychic Monstrosity (3 powers a turn, up 1), Blade Parry (now 3+), Furious Charge (roll 3D6), Swarm Leader (unchanged), Alien Cunning (unchanged), 5 powers
Tell me what you think & how this can be improved.

again... fluff isn't always represented in the rules. it's called game balance.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
again... fluff isn't always represented in the rules. it's called game balance.

He's worth his points now. I tried to compare him to Fulgrim, the base primarch, he lacks pretty much all the tactical special rules, but has the same statline barring a lesser initiative.
And fluff should be represented in the rules.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
So everyone knows the Swarmlord is supposed to be the nastiest thing in close combat ever, barring daemon lords & primarchs, who effortlessly handed Big Papa Smurf his butt on a silver platter, and then massacred the first company alone. He's also incredibly expensive for what he does, to being almost unusable. Let's change that.
WS BS S T W I A LD SV Points
9 3 6 6 6 6 5 10 2+ 315 (upped)
Biomorphs: Bone Sabres (unchanged), Regeneration(new), Armored Shell (new), Acid Blood (new)
Special Rules: Psychic Monstrosity (3 powers a turn, up 1), Blade Parry (now 3+), Furious Charge (roll 3D6), Swarm Leader (unchanged), Alien Cunning (unchanged), 5 powers
Tell me what you think & how this can be improved.

I like it, gives me a reason to use a dif HQ besides the cookie cutter Hive tyrant

 ThePrimordial wrote:
So everyone knows the Swarmlord is supposed to be the nastiest thing in close combat ever, barring daemon lords & primarchs, who effortlessly handed Big Papa Smurf his butt on a silver platter, and then massacred the first company alone. He's also incredibly expensive for what he does, to being almost unusable. Let's change that.
WS BS S T W I A LD SV Points
9 3 6 6 6 6 5 10 2+ 315 (upped)
Biomorphs: Bone Sabres (unchanged), Regeneration(new), Armored Shell (new), Acid Blood (new)
Special Rules: Psychic Monstrosity (3 powers a turn, up 1), Blade Parry (now 3+), Furious Charge (roll 3D6), Swarm Leader (unchanged), Alien Cunning (unchanged), 5 powers
Tell me what you think & how this can be improved.

Just make him Mastery Level 3 and call it a day, maybe 4. With the new rules, no one has a different number of powers from their ML (except Fatey, who's just different). I think for those points though, we should add that his Shadow in the Warp range is also extended, not just Synapse. I'd also say we don't need Regeneration or Acid Blood really.

If I was wishlisting, I'd take your rules and drop Regen/Acid Blood to replace Synapse with the equivalent of Calgars rule. Basically, instead of Fearless, units in his range may choose to pass or Fail morale checks (both effective and fluffy!)

Swarmlord's great as he is, I'm not sure he needs a buff outside of a real invul save.

 jifel wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
So everyone knows the Swarmlord is supposed to be the nastiest thing in close combat ever, barring daemon lords & primarchs, who effortlessly handed Big Papa Smurf his butt on a silver platter, and then massacred the first company alone. He's also incredibly expensive for what he does, to being almost unusable. Let's change that.
WS BS S T W I A LD SV Points
9 3 6 6 6 6 5 10 2+ 315 (upped)
Biomorphs: Bone Sabres (unchanged), Regeneration(new), Armored Shell (new), Acid Blood (new)
Special Rules: Psychic Monstrosity (3 powers a turn, up 1), Blade Parry (now 3+), Furious Charge (roll 3D6), Swarm Leader (unchanged), Alien Cunning (unchanged), 5 powers
Tell me what you think & how this can be improved.

Just make him Mastery Level 3 and call it a day, maybe 4. With the new rules, no one has a different number of powers from their ML (except Fatey, who's just different). I think for those points though, we should add that his Shadow in the Warp range is also extended, not just Synapse. I'd also say we don't need Regeneration or Acid Blood really.

If I was wishlisting, I'd take your rules and drop Regen/Acid Blood to replace Synapse with the equivalent of Calgars rule. Basically, instead of Fearless, units in his range may choose to pass or Fail morale checks (both effective and fluffy!)

Regeneration and Acid Blood are both very nice. I'll see about adding that special rule, but it's very powerful. Let's see other's input on this.
I kinda wanna up his strength to 8 so he can instant death non SM special characters, and make bone sabres AP:2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Swarmlord's great as he is, I'm not sure he needs a buff outside of a real invul save.

He's greatly overcosted & doesn't fit fluff as well as he could.

I'd prefer a 5++ to acid blood but that's a lot like how I run him for homebrew heavy games.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Let's see other's input on this.
I kinda wanna up his strength to 8 so he can instant death non SM special characters, and make bone sabres AP:2

I thought bonesabres ignored armour and caused ID...I must be getting wargear mixed up

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Regeneration and Acid Blood are both very nice. I'll see about adding that special rule, but it's very powerful. Let's see other's input on this.
I kinda wanna up his strength to 8 so he can instant death non SM special characters, and make bone sabres AP:2

Bone Sabers cause ID anyway...that's the biggest aspect of their special rules. Even if for some reason they didn't, you can always use Iron Arm to get increased base str or smash to get S10...which brings up the next thing, the smash USR gives him AP2 already, whether he smashes or not.

He already can kill just about any other character in the game in CC. That's not his problem. His problem is getting him there. If you want to improve him, improve his mobility - he's killy enough as it is.

With a new psychic power system Swarmy is a good unit on its own. Just roll all of his four powers on biomancy - everything except Hemorrage would buff him to the stratosphere, especially Iron Arm and Warp Speed. Swarmlord under Iron Arm and Endurance is all but unkillable, and can reap apart even Primarchs.

got to say, chucking the swarmlord in with some tyrant guard, he'll butcher just about everyone in CC - guard give the opponent I1 with their whips, swarmlord unleashes a load of attacks which wound on 2's, cause instant death and make people reroll invulnerable saves.

what you're doing, as so many people seem to want to do for whatever reason, is remove all his downsides. there is no fun to be had fighting against something which has no weaknesses, as anyone who runs a predominantly S4 army against wraithlords will tell you.

some bloke wrote:
got to say, chucking the swarmlord in with some tyrant guard, he'll butcher just about everyone in CC

Except he don't reach CC at all if his opponent is smart enough - things would run away from Swarmy and his guard squad, while all lascannons and krak missiles in their army try to shoot them down. He basically creates 18" bubble of "OMG, run like hell!" - which is quite useful but rarely worth his their points. I played 6 games in Vassal with footslogging Swarmlord deathstar and he reached close combat only in two of them (both times it was walkers - Armoured Sentinels squad and Triarch Stalker).

So if someone want to boost a Swarmlord, i suggest adding a mobility rather than powering him up. Like adding fleet to hig ruard squad, or allow him to take his guards in one Mieocic Spore with him.

If you want to get fluffy with stats draigo says hello...

Lord Kaldor Draigo

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
9 9 6 6 6 7 5 10 2+

Special Rules: Feel No Pain, Eternal Warrior, It Will Not Die, Grand Strategy, Zealot, Psyker( Mastery Level 2)

Wargear: Terminator Armor, Storm Shield

Titansword: Str AP Special Rules
User 2 Str 10 vs. Daemons and Psykers

350 points, done.

Armoured shell and 6W and I'd be happy with him.
As others have said, he is a beatstick but also a force multiplier.
Many Characters (not all mind) dont provide as much utility as he does to the army.

you have to remember that nids are a communal organism, so if you expect to be able to walk one model into the enemy and destroy them with impunity, you're not thinking like the nids, and you'll do badly. you surround the swarmlord with hormogaunts, escort him with tyrant guard, and perhaps use venomthropes to support him too, he'll make it to combat. the thing is, you're probably stopping every turn to fire off psychic powers instead of just running, which the all-CC swarmlord should be doing. ~9" a turn, with 6 ablative wounds from the guard, cover from the gaunts/venomthropes and a 3+ against the smaller guns, he'll make it to combat.

 motyak wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Let's see other's input on this.
I kinda wanna up his strength to 8 so he can instant death non SM special characters, and make bone sabres AP:2

I thought bonesabres ignored armour and caused ID...I must be getting wargear mixed up

It does, I forgot for a second and because he's a monstrous creature he already has AP:2

when writing proposed rules, one should remember what the rules do...

The Swarmlord is fine as it is. It is one of the few units that almost every player agrees upon as useful and effective.

To be honest, the only downfall he really has is speed, and thats just one of those things.
Solid character that will tear through pretty much everything in combat with ease.

Rather they update something thats really in need of it like the fex.

 Jackal wrote:
To be honest, the only downfall he really has is speed, and thats just one of those things.
Solid character that will tear through pretty much everything in combat with ease.

Rather they update something thats really in need of it like the fex.

The absurd points cost....forget about that. For 80 more points I can get Fulgrim who will hand Swarmy his a$$ in every situation.
I also gave him a maximum 18inch charge to help with his speed. I wanted to simply make it a definitive 15 inch charge.
I hate the new random charges, takes all the strategy out and doesn't add to the fun. But I know everyone doesn't have the same home rules as everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
when writing proposed rules, one should remember what the rules do...

The Swarmlord is fine as it is. It is one of the few units that almost every player agrees upon as useful and effective.

The Swarmlord is not one of those units, and there aren't few units that are objectively effective. There are about 4 a codex.

For 80 points more you pretty much added another 1/3 of his points.

Thats like saying you can have a laspred, or, you could take a godhammer for a bit more.

For less you can take a prime aswell.



The point is, most special characters have an absurd cost and your paying because of the name.
Swarmy actually works well.
If he didnt, no one would run him.

Ill take him in every game thats over 1,000 points and he allways returns them.

 Jackal wrote:
For 80 points more you pretty much added another 1/3 of his points.

Thats like saying you can have a laspred, or, you could take a godhammer for a bit more.

For less you can take a prime aswell.



The point is, most special characters have an absurd cost and your paying because of the name.
Swarmy actually works well.
If he didnt, no one would run him.

Ill take him in every game thats over 1,000 points and he allways returns them.

The only changes that need to be made to make him objectively good are to up his wounds to 6, give him armored shell, and up his mastery to 3.
That's all that needs to be done. There are about 20 regulars at my LGS. 9 of them play 'nids, and one of them uses Swarmy. I know local metas are different but very few people who play 'nids actually run Swarmy.
And for a reason, if you make your points back with him you're lucky.
I do understand what you're saying though. He's no Old One Eye.

Yeah, the Swarmlord is already pretty awesome, especially with the new powers.

All he needs is a invulnerable save outside of combat. I'm thinking a 4+ "Psychic Field" and perhaps therefore change his Blade Parry to something like "-1 to hit in combat". Then, he should be upgraded to Mastery Level 4. Or possibly 3.

And I think the only reason people generally don't run the Swarmlord at the moment is because Nids really need Anti Air and the only decent source of that is the Flyrant. So Swarmy faces very stiff competition. In a new Codex, I think we'll see a new Flying Gribbly and hence a rise in popularity of everyone's favourite psychic monstrosity.

Tyrant guard don't serve well enough as an "invulnerable" save?

Thats my thoughts solo.
I take 2-3 depending on game size with whips.

Means im allways going 1st and ive got models to catch low AP shots.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Tyrant guard don't serve well enough as an "invulnerable" save?

Not if they die.

I think the most powerful Tyranid entity available should have some sort of invulnerable save. Having a SM variant of the Swarmlord (i.e. Calgar) without an invulnerable would be unheard of!

The Swarmlord is AP2, with automatic ID and a 4++ in CC.He effectively blocks enemy psychic powers from going off. He makes you re-roll successful invulnerable saves. He has EW and access to Biomancy. The math has been done elsewhere on this forum, but in summary the Swarmlord will annihilate anyone else in the game in close combat. Any character without EW will die in 1-2 rounds of combat, and he has enough attacks to cut down stuff that would otherwise work really well against him (like TH/SS termies)
If you're comparing him to Fulgrim, you're wrong; that's 30K and is balanced differently. In 40K, the swarmlord will beat Kharn and Abbadon. He can kill a dreadknight in a single turn. In short, he is the most powerful CC character in the game. I suggest you re-read his rules, and look over all his special rules again. Then, if you want something that is stronger, faster, and packs a bigger punch go buy the Apoc rulebook.

 greyknight12 wrote:
The Swarmlord is AP2, with automatic ID and a 4++ in CC.He effectively blocks enemy psychic powers from going off. He makes you re-roll successful invulnerable saves. He has EW and access to Biomancy. The math has been done elsewhere on this forum, but in summary the Swarmlord will annihilate anyone else in the game in close combat. Any character without EW will die in 1-2 rounds of combat, and he has enough attacks to cut down stuff that would otherwise work really well against him (like TH/SS termies)
If you're comparing him to Fulgrim, you're wrong; that's 30K and is balanced differently. In 40K, the swarmlord will beat Kharn and Abbadon. He can kill a dreadknight in a single turn. In short, he is the most powerful CC character in the game. I suggest you re-read his rules, and look over all his special rules again. Then, if you want something that is stronger, faster, and packs a bigger punch go buy the Apoc rulebook.

And how many competitive Nid lists have you seen taking the Swarmlord...?

 The Shadow wrote:
I think the only reason people generally don't run the Swarmlord at the moment is because Nids really need Anti Air and the only decent source of that is the Flyrant. So Swarmy faces very stiff competition.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
I think the only reason people generally don't run the Swarmlord at the moment is because Nids really need Anti Air and the only decent source of that is the Flyrant. So Swarmy faces very stiff competition.

Exactly.

He still needs a buff to compete at the moment. And furthermore, a lot of the buffs people are suggesting (such as ML 3) make sense.