Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I won a small doubles tourney with list one but list two has a theme so I'm unsure which to use???
This has some swing because one of the tourneys I play In gives you points for themed armies instead of going all out Killy.
Both are competative armies and are only being played in competative environments.

List one
CSM
HQ
Daemon prince
Nurgle, black mace, wings, armour, LVL2

TROOPS
7 chaos space marines
Melta, rhino

7 chaos space marines
Melta, rhino

FAST ATTACK
Heldrake x2

HQ
LOC
Lvl3, staff, 2 greater

TROOPS
10 plague bearers

10 plague bearers

HEAVY SUPPORT
Daemon prince
Tzeentch, lvl2, staff, flight, armour, Grimnoire

1747pts

Or a tzeentch themed list

HQ
Fateweaver

Herald of tzeentch
Lvl3, disc, exalted locus, Grimnoire

Herald of tzeentch
Lvl3, lesser and greater ether blades, disc

Herald of tzeentch
Lvl3, greater ether blade, disc

TROOPS
10 horrors

10 horrors

10 horrors

FAST ATTACK
9 screamers

HQ
Daemon prince
Tzeentch, black mace, armour, wings

TROOPS
10 cultists

FAST ATTACK
Heldrake

1745pts

I'm leaning towards list two because it has a theme that I can uphold (Plus I'm much better at painting blue) but me and my friend smashed everyone at the tourney I played in (very lucky against tau). I look forward to seeing who chooses what. I think the screamer star is more of a threat even though it doesn't look as threatening as 3 fmc and 2 heldrakes. Please give me as much C&C as you can thanks.

List 2 will lose its troops very quickly, they are all in small groups and are very squishy. It wouldn't take much for them to get blasted off an objective later on. Also, that screamer unit will have a ton of points in it and be the only thing on the ground, making it the prime target of just about every shooting attack they have. You have good odds of setting up a 2+ invuln, but against something like Tao, you need more wounds. Fateweaver isn't such a big threat on his own, so he will probibly be ignored unless they have anti-air that can get him and not your DP. If he ever gets grounded, he will get charged and basically be out of the game. You are also dependent on going first, since before you buff the screamers they will die quickly. You have few answers to vehicles as well.

List 1 the troops are more durable, so that always nice. Your units will only be easy to kill if you don't go first, but they should be easier to hide. After that, they all go monster mode and should easily get their charges. Helldrakes are also hard to put down, and murder all non-Teq infantry wholesale. Your FMCs should murder Teqs just fine on their own (unless its large units of them with special characters in it, then they should all jump that unit at the same time).

The Screamer unit will mostly have a 2++ reroll able. Wounds become irrelevant. You have to kill Fateweaver first then wait for the Grimoire to fail. Then hope you have enough firepower alive to kill the Screamer unit (or at least the grimoire carrying Herald) in 1 turn.

The second list for me is both more competitive and more themed. Screamer council will be a power house until they change the grimoire to max out at 3++ (which I expect to happen when the codex finally gets a FAQ).

Yeah I think I prefer list 2 I just need to get the models. Although list one will be my competative army until then. Can anyone think of ay changes to list 2 to make it more competative???

To be honest I wouldn't change a thing in list 2. Absolutely no filler in the list and looks about perfect.

I just playtested with my friend list 1 against list 2. List one seems far more competative it was the scouring. I used list 1 and I got first turn I blasted half of the screamers turn 1 then managed to get a 2++ re roll on The Lord of change (lucky I know). By the end of turn 2 I'd pretty much had all of his troops locked in combat ignoring the screamer star. After killing all of his troops all of my fmc jumped on the screamer star with the plague bearers hiding on objectives wining me the game. In other words I think I'm gonna go with the more durable list 1.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The Screamer unit will mostly have a 2++ reroll able. Wounds become irrelevant. You have to kill Fateweaver first then wait for the Grimoire to fail. Then hope you have enough firepower alive to kill the Screamer unit (or at least the grimoire carrying Herald) in 1 turn.

The second list for me is both more competitive and more themed. Screamer council will be a power house until they change the grimoire to max out at 3++ (which I expect to happen when the codex finally gets a FAQ).

the Grimoire only adds +2 to the inv save so thee screamers only have a 3+ inv, not 2+. only fateweaver gets the 2+ inv as he starts a 4+.

still nasty though.

If you get forewarning it gives them a 4++ then give them the Grimnoire it goes to 2++

With 9 psyker levels in the unit the chances of one of them rolling forewarning for a 4++ is almost guaranteed. Then you get the 2++ rerollable on the Screamers. With 2 wounds each plenty of firepower from the Heralds and if necessary a fairly brutal CC punch with all the AP2 attacks from the Heralds and the massed attacks from the Screamers (which can also be AP2 if needed). The Heralds are S4 AP2 with a total of 9 attacks between them all rerolling to hit due to Prescience... There's basically nothing that unit can't kill. As long as the Grimoire holds up...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would advise trying again but with list 2 going first I'm pretty certain you get the same result but in reverse.

You cant always go first though I think you list relies on the screamers too much and they will be must shoot turn 1 if your opponent goes first. This is a style of list that needsa lot of practice I know as I run screamers but haven't lost a game with them for a reason. When you are putting half your points in one unit you need to know how to use it

Just played list 2 against another friend with his stupid 4+ invun blog guard/dark angels he won 4-3 so it was close but I just couldn't kill enough of the blob with the heralds and then had the trouble of they got into combat with the fearless 50 man blob squad all with 4+ azreal invun. Well played spreading the blob out by my opponent I didn't stand much of a chance after they got stuck in combat.

The Screamer list is more competitive but harder to use. It is also more themed but from what you're saying list 1 seems to suit you better. My advice is therefore go with what is important to you. Either playing in your comfort zone to maximise your chances of winning now. Or push yourself to become a more rounded player and try something new. Probably reducing your chances short term but giving you more long term benefits and potentially more fun.

Loved this "Plus I'm much better at painting blue".
Played similar lists, I agree it is hard to play and a very tactical list to play, you need to know what you are doing and the opponents weakness to make it work as best as possible.

Currently trying to make 2++ Screamers work at 1650 which is a total headache.

Your matchup concerns should be a decent Tau player that knows what he's doing, Be careful not to let your Screamers just be tied up forever. If that happens ensure you get first blood and win by claiming/contesting objectives and keeping your other units safe until first blood has been taken.

FMC flying circus is also a major problem or this list although there are a few tactics that can help.

Also beware of Wraithknights, their speed will cause you problems and you don't want to be stuck in combat with one of these mofos for 3 -4 turns.

I like both lists a lot, but I think list 2 could be improved by some power armor. Some tough objective holders that draw fire could't hurt that list at all. That and/or also taking the portalglyph, which I have always found very nice to have for 30 points.

Thank you for your comments I'm going to play both for a while in some competative games I think my tactics with the fmc are sound because I've played them a lot so it's going to take some time to get used to running a single Death Star instead of my usual 3 princes with Heldrake support. I'm too used to having one of my big shiny units die and just think well I've got 4 more.

I like both lists, I'd switch up the nurgle prince in list 1 to tzeentch and drop the mastery levels to file out the rest of the CSM squads. The tzeentch prince has more bonuses going for you over nurgle. Sweeping advances and rerolling saves of 1 being the biggest. You have a real solid couple of lists.

Cheers but I like the the option of getting ion arm or going for invisibility on my prince I might try him as tzeentch see how it goes.

I see what you're saying but 50pts for a 1/6 chance at Iron Arm or Invis seems like a bad investment.

Yeah but I like to take the risk especially with biomancy as at least 4 of the powers are very useful life leech not so good but still has its uses.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Loved this "Plus I'm much better at painting blue".
Played similar lists, I agree it is hard to play and a very tactical list to play, you need to know what you are doing and the opponents weakness to make it work as best as possible.

Currently trying to make 2++ Screamers work at 1650 which is a total headache.

Your matchup concerns should be a decent Tau player that knows what he's doing, Be careful not to let your Screamers just be tied up forever. If that happens ensure you get first blood and win by claiming/contesting objectives and keeping your other units safe until first blood has been taken.

FMC flying circus is also a major problem or this list although there are a few tactics that can help.

Also beware of Wraithknights, their speed will cause you problems and you don't want to be stuck in combat with one of these mofos for 3 -4 turns.

I am running a 1650 now I think the screamers fit rather well in at that points level.

Was on my phone earlier so can do a better break down now, I think the screamers have to be supported and fatey protected, and sending the screamers and a prince down the board everyone will focus on your prince then ignore the screamers. You have three heralds there, are you not using scriers gaze?, keep your troops off the board until turn 4, same with fatey. I personnaly run quote a few hounds giving my opponent the option of shooting the screamers which are a must kill (assuming he goes first) or usully 50 odd wounds of hounds coming at them which will be in charge range of anything and everything turn 2, these are now must kill as well!.

The hounds are also able to outflank for armies like massed soul grinders (something that will tie them up and not be able to hurt).

Don't known if this will help or not. I like list two. I'm a Tzeentch Player as well.

Screamer Council seems good. I know the idea is for 2++ ap2 assaults, but have you thought about mixing in a Herald with Exalted Loci then taking flickering fire on all heralds? It will reduce your chance of getting forewarning, but up to 9D6 Str 6 shots on jetbikes seems pretty tasty. If you have points for another herald, that's up to 12D6. Just a thought. Other suggestion, if not going for shooting powers, take the assault loci that changes Str for the unit. If you roll bad, the screamers have a set weapon Str. If you roll good, more attacks at Str 5-6 would be fun on the charge.

I love bringing Horrors. Last tournament they were good. I took mine in units of 12, because I had spare points. I would recommend units of at least 11. 9 points for an extra warp charge.

Have you thought about adding another Exalted Reward for Portal glyph if it's a scouring mission? I would help with the fragile troops.

Good luck with your tournament. I'm interested in hearing how your Screamers do. First tournament with the new dex I attended, I had a similar set up. First game was against Tyranids, and the screamers failed the psychic tests turn two. Then were wiped. Second game they were taken out by DA Terminators. So I switched lists after that. I've been reading more online about other running the same unit more often. I might need to try it again.

MarkyMark wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Loved this "Plus I'm much better at painting blue".
Played similar lists, I agree it is hard to play and a very tactical list to play, you need to know what you are doing and the opponents weakness to make it work as best as possible.

Currently trying to make 2++ Screamers work at 1650 which is a total headache.

Your matchup concerns should be a decent Tau player that knows what he's doing, Be careful not to let your Screamers just be tied up forever. If that happens ensure you get first blood and win by claiming/contesting objectives and keeping your other units safe until first blood has been taken.

FMC flying circus is also a major problem or this list although there are a few tactics that can help.

Also beware of Wraithknights, their speed will cause you problems and you don't want to be stuck in combat with one of these mofos for 3 -4 turns.

I am running a 1650 now I think the screamers fit rather well in at that points level.

Was on my phone earlier so can do a better break down now, I think the screamers have to be supported and fatey protected, and sending the screamers and a prince down the board everyone will focus on your prince then ignore the screamers. You have three heralds there, are you not using scriers gaze?, keep your troops off the board until turn 4, same with fatey. I personnaly run quote a few hounds giving my opponent the option of shooting the screamers which are a must kill (assuming he goes first) or usully 50 odd wounds of hounds coming at them which will be in charge range of anything and everything turn 2, these are now must kill as well!.

The hounds are also able to outflank for armies like massed soul grinders (something that will tie them up and not be able to hurt).

I like your list a lot Mark as I had the pleasure of being spanked by it.
It will be interesting to see how you do in the GT heat and other tournaments you plan to attend.
Unfortunately I'm really lacking time for test play but plan to take a similar list although I'm not going down the hound route.

I am currently thinking of another screamer list which counters two of their issues, one being anti air and the other weak scoring. Will do a few play tests to see how that goes

Exactly the same reasons why I'm not running Hounds and exactly the same issues which lead me to the current build.

Happy to share thoughts and discuss ideas if you're interested, here, vassal or otherwise.