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Hey there Dakka Community.

The rule book clearly states that set modifiers are always done last, and even gives an example of set str to 8 and +1 str = str 8 p.2 BRB (with absolutely no distinction on timing)
p3 also states that a saving throw is a stat.

So if you have spell that gives you a 4+ invul save and say the Grimoire improving that by +2 wouldn't it still be 4+ invul save?

Also not sure on the wording of the Warpstorm roll that gives the daemons a 4+, does it set it to 4+ or improve by 1 point?

You're assuming gaining a 4+ invul from forewarning is a modifier and not just a save in general. It's not trying to change something, its just giving you a save.

yeah, getting given a 4+ invuln save is not a set modifier, its simply a base rule. And you can have multiple invuln saves.

For example, a Captain in TDA with a Storm Shield has not two but three different invuln saves. 5+ from the TDA, 4+ from Iron Halo, and 3+ from the Storm Shield.

If something gave him +1 to his invuln saves it would apply to all of them. So the TDA would go to a 4+, the Iron Halo to a 3+, and the SS to a 2+.

With the spell and the Grimoire it would simply be a 4+ from the psychic power and the Grimoire would make it a 2+. Otherwise it would be +2 to whatever other Invuln you have.

Furthermore, the section in the BRB called "Modifiers" (and "Set Modifiers") says they can "modify a model's characteristics" (p2). Armour saves are included in the stat line. Invulnerable saves, however, are not included in a model's characteristics. This is why the profiles of most Daemons, even though they have a 5++, have a '-' in the "Sv" column--they have no save characteristic!

There are several characters with the invul save included in their profiles, daemons don't have it because they get their invul save from the daemon USR.
I guess the real question is whether or not an invul is a characteristic or not.
As for the wording of gaining, I don't think that matters as there are many modifiers such as gains str 10 that is clearly a set modifier.

Kisada II wrote:
There are several characters with the invul save included in their profiles

Do you have any examples? I'm guessing they're from really old Codexes - as the invulnerable save wasn't a characteristic under 5th ed either.

Invuln saves are not listed on the Characteristics page of the BRB. The numbers that are in a model's profile, or stat line, are Characteristics. Things that are not in that stat line are not characteristics.

For those two reasons, invulns are not characteristics. Do you have any rule from the BRB stating something like, "Invulnerable saves are a characteristic"?