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I had a game today where one of my prince was gliding and the other was swooping.

My friend who was playing against me had a stormraven gunship and he declare that he is going to shoot at both my prince due to the POTMS special rule.

I remembered reading that flyer can only choose to fire ground target or sky target per shooting phase.

So here I am. Needing Clarification or at least what the dakka community think is the right interpretation.

BRB Pg. 42. Skyfire
'a model this special rule, using normal BS against flyers, FMC, Skimmers. Unless it has interceptor, it can only fire snapshot against other targets.

BRB. Pg. 40 POTMS
' vehicle can fire ONE more weapon at full BS rather than normally permitted...'

BRB Pg. 81 Flyer. Special Rules
'Flyers can elect whether or not to use skyfire... but if they do, all weapons they fire are treated as having the skyfire special rule.'
[i]
So. What do you guys think?

Can the stormraven fire at group units at full BS with one weapon after shooting at a swooping(flying) Deamon Prince?
Or does he has to choose 1 ?

You HAVE to snapfire at ground targets if using Skyfire, and vice versa

The FAQ for snapfire states this CANNOT be modified.

BS1

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You HAVE to snapfire at ground targets if using Skyfire, and vice versa

The FAQ for snapfire states this CANNOT be modified.

BS1

So He has only got 2 options?

Ground Target or Flying Target?

I could see this argued either way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You HAVE to snapfire at ground targets if using Skyfire, and vice versa

The FAQ for snapfire states this CANNOT be modified.

You could argue that POTMS isnt modifing the snapshot, its replaceing it with a full BS shot. But I'm totally just thinking out loud here.
Also I cant think of any reason I would do this unless maybe I had kiled the swooping prince dead and still had more shots to make. Otherwise I'd pump everything into the flyer and target the glider with some thing else. but thats off topic... lol sry

Spartak wrote:
I could see this argued either way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You HAVE to snapfire at ground targets if using Skyfire, and vice versa

The FAQ for snapfire states this CANNOT be modified.

You could argue that POTMS isnt modifing the snapshot, its replaceing it with a full BS shot. But I'm totally just thinking out loud here.
Also I cant think of any reason I would do this unless maybe I had kiled the swooping prince dead and still had more shots to make. Otherwise I'd pump everything into the flyer and target the glider with some thing else. but thats off topic... lol sry

My interpretation would be that.

Since you have to CHOOSE or not to give your weapons skyfire this turn.
And the Skyfire rules states that it can only snapshot ground target.

althought POTMS allows 1 extra shot than normally permitted(in the case of moving the vehicle 12inches and fire 1 weapon at full BS)

BUT.

Skyfire explicitly states that unless you have interceptor. You cand only make snapshot at other targets? :(




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spartak wrote:
I could see this argued either way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You HAVE to snapfire at ground targets if using Skyfire, and vice versa

The FAQ for snapfire states this CANNOT be modified.

You could argue that POTMS isnt modifing the snapshot, its replaceing it with a full BS shot. But I'm totally just thinking out loud here.
Also I cant think of any reason I would do this unless maybe I had kiled the swooping prince dead and still had more shots to make. Otherwise I'd pump everything into the flyer and target the glider with some thing else. but thats off topic... lol sry

The one on the ground was my Khorne Prince with Axe of Blind fury with 1 wound left. Right in front of his hydra and about to rip it a new one next turn.

I am so mean. My friend saw my list and told me that I really have no intentions of keeping anyone at the local store as friends. lol.

Did that Khorne Prince have wings? If so then the Hydra could still shoot at it will full BS since it would still be a flying monstrous creature

CrownAxe wrote:
Did that Khorne Prince have wings? If so then the Hydra could still shoot at it will full BS since it would still be a flying monstrous creature

The thread is about Stormraven. Not the Hydra.

If you use PotMS to shoot at a ground target, when you have the Skyfire rule in use in order to shoot at full BS against a flyer, then you will be making a SnapShot at the ground target

As per the FAQ you CANNOT alter the BS of a snapshot, unless your rule specifically states you can do so. Markerlights specifically state you can do so, PotMS does NOT state antyhing at all about snapshots, so therefore does *not* specifically override the FAQ

BS1 if you fire at a ground target when rest is shooting at the flier, and vice versa.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you use PotMS to shoot at a ground target, when you have the Skyfire rule in use in order to shoot at full BS against a flyer, then you will be making a SnapShot at the ground target

As per the FAQ you CANNOT alter the BS of a snapshot, unless your rule specifically states you can do so. Markerlights specifically state you can do so, PotMS does NOT state antyhing at all about snapshots, so therefore does *not* specifically override the FAQ

BS1 if you fire at a ground target when rest is shooting at the flier, and vice versa.

Exactly my thought. It would be helpful if you can point me to the page on the FAQ that says Snapshot cannot be override.

Thanks.

I have no idea of the rules of the stormraven but if it has interceptor wouldnt this be ok?

I cant from work, however using "find" within the PDF should yield results. If not do a search on this forum, snapshots and markerlights thread (probably only on page 2) had the FAQ repeated constantly.

 kezwick wrote:
I have no idea of the rules of the stormraven but if it has interceptor wouldnt this be ok?

Stormraven does not have 'Interceptor' Special rule.

If it does. Then I would say that he can use POTMS to fire at ONE ground target with full BS.

I am not sure if the interceptor is a rule for per weapon or per model. but yeah. you get my point. (:

You declare whether or not you are using Skyfire at the beginning of the shooting phase. This applies to ALL guns on the model. So in the case of one flying/one not flying MC, you declare skyfire, then you nominate targets - Gun A at FMC, Gun B with POTMS at ground MC. You are nomal BS against the FMC, snapshotting at the ground MC. Or you could declare not skyfire and be full BS at the ground MC, and snapshotting against the FMC.

Preferably, if the ground MC is a psyker I would choose to not skyfire with a Stormraven, thereby allowing me to fire Mindstrike missiles.

Although this thread did answer my question I was searching for. (Thanks djdarknoise)

To answer the OP, the Stormraven was legally allowed to shoot at both princes at full BS, regardless of whether or not they were swooping or gliding, if the DP's had wings. They are still classified at FMC regardless of movement status.

Liberame wrote:
Although this thread did answer my question I was searching for. (Thanks djdarknoise)

To answer the OP, the Stormraven was legally allowed to shoot at both princes at full BS, regardless of whether or not they were swooping or gliding, if the DP's had wings. They are still classified at FMC regardless of movement status.

I think that is not correct. Or did I misunderstood what you are trying to say? Mind to clarify? (:

If you choose to swoop you have a 24inches mocement range, and enemy shooting at you must fire it as snapshot unless they have skyfire.

If you choose to glide you have 12inces movement range, and are treated as a jump monstrous creature(if I am not mistaken).

So. If 1 prince is gliding and 1 is swopping. The stormraven would have to elect to use its 'skyfire' rule for the turn or not. If he does. He snapfire against the gliding prince and fire as normal onto the swooping prince.

If he choose not to skyfire, the situation is vice versa.

And yes. They are FMC regardless of movement. But the movement they choose is the factor that dictates the shooting of the stormraven.

kissmymom wrote:

Liberame wrote:
Although this thread did answer my question I was searching for. (Thanks djdarknoise)

To answer the OP, the Stormraven was legally allowed to shoot at both princes at full BS, regardless of whether or not they were swooping or gliding, if the DP's had wings. They are still classified at FMC regardless of movement status.

I think that is not correct.

If you choose to swoop you have a 24inches mocement range, and enemy shooting at you must fire it as snapshot unless they have skyfire.

If you choose to glide you have 12inces movement range, and are treated as a jump monstrous creature(if I am not mistaken).

So. If 1 prince is gliding and 1 is swopping. The stormraven would have to elect to use its 'skyfire' rule for the turn or not. If he does. He snapfire against the gliding prince and fire as normal onto the swooping prince.

If he choose not to skyfire, the situation is vice versa.

That is not correct at all, re-read the Skyfire rules to find out why.

 DeathReaper wrote:

kissmymom wrote:

Liberame wrote:
Although this thread did answer my question I was searching for. (Thanks djdarknoise)

To answer the OP, the Stormraven was legally allowed to shoot at both princes at full BS, regardless of whether or not they were swooping or gliding, if the DP's had wings. They are still classified at FMC regardless of movement status.

I think that is not correct.

If you choose to swoop you have a 24inches mocement range, and enemy shooting at you must fire it as snapshot unless they have skyfire.

If you choose to glide you have 12inces movement range, and are treated as a jump monstrous creature(if I am not mistaken).

So. If 1 prince is gliding and 1 is swopping. The stormraven would have to elect to use its 'skyfire' rule for the turn or not. If he does. He snapfire against the gliding prince and fire as normal onto the swooping prince.

If he choose not to skyfire, the situation is vice versa.

That is not correct at all, re-read the Skyfire rules to find out why.

Ah. I see where you are going here. I have the rule stated at the first post btw. (:

Interesting indeed.

If I recall correctly(I am outside now, can't check rulebook).

Go read the unit type section.

Under. 'Monstrous Creature'

The choice between gliding and swooping changes the monstrous creature's unit type.
Gliding = Jump Monstrous Creature
Swooping = Flying Monstrous Creature.

I think that's the bit you missed. But you think I am wrong. Please correct me.

As for now. I will stick with my originalk stance.

Seriously read the Skyfire rule, it tells you exactly what you can hit at full BS...

Also, the Flying Monstrous Creature section tells you for which specific purposes they are treated as Jump Monstrous Creatures while Gliding (hint: it doesn't include shooting at them).

Interesting. I've checked the rulebook. And I see where you are going with this.

BRB Pg. 42. Skyfire
'a model this special rule, using normal BS against flyers, FMC, Skimmers. Unless it has interceptor, it can only fire snapshot against other targets.

BRB Pg. 49
FMC
Gliding
'If a FMC is gliding, it moves, runs, and charges exactly like a jump monstrous creature.'

I see your argument here.

But this is my opinion on the issue. Please bear with me.

A flyer and a FMC has a choice to either glide and swoop, hover and zoom in the flyer's case.

By RAW I see that you have argued that a weapon with skyfire rule can fire with FULL BS against, skimmer, FMC and flyer.

Now. the question is. A flyer that is hovering, does the weapon with skyfire still hit with FULL BS? I opinion on this is. No.
It will have to be fire as a snap shot.

Back to the FMC. When it is swooping. It has the 'Hard To Hit' rule which forced units that fire on it to make snapshot.

When it is gliding. It however is a monstrous creature that can move 12 and be targeted as normal.

So A Stormraven that has elected to use 'skyfire' in its shooting phase may fire on full BS on the swooping prince and snapshot on the gliding prince. or vice versa. if he so choose not use skyfire.

(:

 kissmymom wrote:
By RAW I see that you have argued that a weapon with skyfire rule can fire with FULL BS against, skimmer, FMC and flyer.

Now. the question is. A flyer that is hovering, does the weapon with skyfire still hit with FULL BS? I opinion on this is. No.

A flyer that is in hover is a skimmer, and skimmers also get shot at full BS with skyfire (which you even said in your post)

As with FMCs, they are still a FMC type regardless of being gliding or swooping (since gliding says they act like a jump monstrous creature, not that they become one) which is all Skyfire cares about.

 kissmymom wrote:
So A Stormraven that has elected to use 'skyfire' in its shooting phase may fire on full BS on the swooping prince and snapshot on the gliding prince. or vice versa. if he so choose not use skyfire.

Please cite the rule that changes a FMC to something else while Gliding.

I think you'll find there isn't one - the model is still a FMC regardless of its movement type.

I agree with Rigeld on this one.

FMC 'counts as' JMC while gliding.

Flyer becomes Skimmer while hovering.

all within the bounds for Skyfire.

Full BS everywhere

 IHateNids wrote:
FMC 'counts as' JMC while gliding.

Remember that they only count as Jump MC's when noted (Three instances).

agreed, which still leaves them as FMCs. Thus still full BS-able by Skyfire.

 IHateNids wrote:
agreed, which still leaves them as FMCs. Thus still full BS-able by Skyfire.

True this! The rules for sky fire,allow for full BS against flyers, skimmers and FMC. It's a flat statement with no modifications on what mode any of them are using.

While the FAQ states that a gliding FMC Can be targeted as normal, it doesn't say that follows all of the rules for targeting ground units.

So the rules for skyfire allow for full BS to be used at all times when shooting at a FMC.