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One of the things that I like about Warhammer Fantasy is the fact that, while still dark, it's not as laughably GRIMDARK! as 40k. Yet when reading through the beastmen codex I couldn't help but think, "Wow, this is an actually interesting concept, now if only they didn't insist on making them part of chaos..."

Maybe it's just me, but I get the feeling that their role as "things that creep in the dark" and "anti-civilisation" would work out much better when every second sentence weren't about how they are oh so unnatural and bloodthirsty.

Thoughts, opinions, public defamations?

Well Beastmen can't really help but worship chaos as that is how they came to be, and they aren't really smart enough (for the most part), to do anything except what they have always done. Also they aren't part of chaos, just destruction. They are like a force of nature, not evil by intention, that's just how it is percived. Unlike say Dark Elves who are evil, could change their ways, but refuse to do so.

Beastmen are about as over-the-top as it gets. They're like 1980s Satan Rock Metal. Ozzy Ozbourne and Iron Maiden love child. That said, you know they are over-the-top.

They're kinda like O&G without any humor. I mean, Orcs are really scary stuff. So are Ogres. The first are bloodthirsty killers who live for war. The latter will eat you just as soon as talk to you. But they're still funny. Cuz Orcs have goblins and talk funny. And cuz Ogres are fat and stupid.

But there's nothing funny about a Minotaur.

I wouldn't call it Grimdark. I just blush reading anything 40K cuz it's like boy porn. His muscley muscles and noble face muscled his power armor as his vocal muscles pushed out the words, "For the Emperor!" And he killed 100,000 people with one swing of his muscle sword. Yes, seriously, 100K people.

I think I would like beastmen better if they just had some sort of tribal culture going. They could still be bloodthirsty, but I would like the whole concept better if they weren't made by the warp.

But it's not true that they have to worship Chaos just because Chaos made them. Skaven are a byproduct of Chaos, and besides worshipping what is clearly an enormous Chaos demon, they really have no love for Chaos. You'll never see them squeel their love for Khorne or any of the other accepted Chaos gods.

Yah, but Chaos is Chaos. It doesn't have to be Food for the Food God. The major 4. If you look at the map, they got a bunch of really big daemons with their own little kingdoms in the realm of chaos.

Was thinking thread title would make a great Orc character name...

 Purifier wrote:
I think I would like beastmen better if they just had some sort of tribal culture going. They could still be bloodthirsty, but I would like the whole concept better if they weren't made by the warp.

But it's not true that they have to worship Chaos just because Chaos made them. Skaven are a byproduct of Chaos, and besides worshipping what is clearly an enormous Chaos demon, they really have no love for Chaos. You'll never see them squeel their love for Khorne or any of the other accepted Chaos gods.

My thoughts exactly. With the warriors or the demons the whole chaos thing IS the fluff, but with the beastmen it just seems like you could easily make them stand on their own feet, for some variety.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Beastmen are about as over-the-top as it gets. They're like 1980s Satan Rock Metal. Ozzy Ozbourne and Iron Maiden love child. That said, you know they are over-the-top.

They're kinda like O&G without any humor. I mean, Orcs are really scary stuff. So are Ogres. The first are bloodthirsty killers who live for war. The latter will eat you just as soon as talk to you. But they're still funny. Cuz Orcs have goblins and talk funny. And cuz Ogres are fat and stupid.

But there's nothing funny about a Minotaur.

I wouldn't call it Grimdark. I just blush reading anything 40K cuz it's like boy porn. His muscley muscles and noble face muscled his power armor as his vocal muscles pushed out the words, "For the Emperor!" And he killed 100,000 people with one swing of his muscle sword. Yes, seriously, 100K people.

This 100,000 times this. I do myself enjoy beastmen for the aesthetic as i do vampires (before they were sparklified) but as far as beastmen go i will wait till they get re-done before i think of playing them. I mean come on the ghorgon and minotaurs just sound so fun. Beastmen just have sort of a goatmen feel to them that wants to utterly destroy the humans they can not be. Yeah it's a bit grim but not everything in fantasy has to be funny. It's a mix but a good mix. Chaos itself tends not to be funny overall.

The reasons why i like fantasy is that fantasy has some fantasy factions that are cool or lacking in fantasy. Personally i can't stand O&G, most elves and most dwarves but the other less shown fantasy factions are highly appealing to me. I don't mind O&G, dwarves and elves but i don't want to play as them. Oddly enough most of the lesser tread factions are evil or neutral with the exception of lizardmen. To me lizardmen, skaven, beastmen, somewhat ogres and undead factions are very entertaining. Also i enjoy facing warriors of chaos if nothing else than to burn down warriors with warpfire throwers or similar.

Other reasons why i enjoy fantasy is that things seem to have more meaning and the world feels more screwed overall and yet people still enjoy themselves and the story has a sense of humor. In 40k you can lose 1,000 worlds in the imperium and it still won't matter. Even after a thousand battles your efforts have little meaning to the point where you shouldn't even care or bother. In fantasy sure the good guys have plot armor but knocking down a few empire provinces has happened before. One legendary orc warlord did just that if i remember correctly. So overall things seem to have more weight in fantasy then they do in 40k.

Then there's the fact as you guys mentioned it's not as over-the-top to the point where it's like 8-12 year old were busy watching their first action p**n and just got together talking about the coolest most biggestest baddest dudes ever.

Not only story but fantasy has better tactics. It's crazy how much movement and even magic can effect the game. I'd say shooting usually doesn't as much but it can surprise people. I hear complaints that shooting is impossibly good in 40k these days. Other than war machines, poisoned shooting and stuff that doesn't have many negative modifiers to shooting because it negates them ever tends to be good in fantasy (or at least for the most part).

40k just feels like the idiot inbred cousin of warhammer fantasy made by michael bay.

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Was thinking thread title would make a great Orc character name...

This is exactly what I thought. "I have never heard of this Orc hero, I wonder what this thread is about?" lol

Fantasy has always been a more sophisticated game, including its use of humor. I think the Beastmen fit just fine into this sensibility, it's all about how seriously you take the representation of Chaos. Chaos is SERIOUS BUSINESS in 40K with various ridiculous characters, rape monsters, etc. Chaos in fantasy thinks it's just as big and bad, but it's always felt just a tad more cuddly to me. Chaos Dwarves anyone?

40K wasn't always so over-the-top GRIM-DARK and humorless, but after 20 years of bad and lazy writers who think the only way to craft a compelling story is to magnify the scale of everything to ludicrous proportions, the fluff is more or less un-readable these days.

It's even had a negative effect on the tabletop, in my opinion, as fans of the fiction expect every unit to be capable of tabling their opponent, solo.

Purple Saturday wrote:
Fantasy has always been a more sophisticated game, including its use of humor. I think the Beastmen fit just fine into this sensibility, it's all about how seriously you take the representation of Chaos. Chaos is SERIOUS BUSINESS in 40K with various ridiculous characters, rape monsters, etc. Chaos in fantasy thinks it's just as big and bad, but it's always felt just a tad more cuddly to me. Chaos Dwarves anyone?

40K wasn't always so over-the-top GRIM-DARK and humorless, but after 20 years of bad and lazy writers who think the only way to craft a compelling story is to magnify the scale of everything to ludicrous proportions, the fluff is more or less un-readable these days.

It's even had a negative effect on the tabletop, in my opinion, as fans of the fiction expect every unit to be capable of tabling their opponent, solo.

To be fair, that's a great way to cater to two different audiences.

Grimdark is a humorous styling. It's based on the dark, absurdist, ultra-dry British wit of the late 1980's.

That doesn't change the fact that it's supposed to be funny, though.

You know the fact that my Gors could easily of been toruing with Venom or Bathory in the mid 80's totally didn't inspire me to roll with the lowest tier Chaos army in WHFB. Totes not.