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I just picked up Open Fire and I'm reading the rules.

Can I get some input here on the major differences between the different armies, I'm looking mostly at Late War armies.

Here's what I've got so far, would appreciate more info:


United States
-Very mobile, several rules for mobility (semi automatic rifles, tank stabilizers, etc)
-Superior communications (certain teams can act as spotters for Artillery, artillery units can combine their firepower on a single target, etc)
-Can fire man packed guns on transports

USSR
-Very large platoons/battlions (lower skills, but way bigger numbers)
-Kommissar's can stop fleeing platoons

Germany
-Stormtrooper rule allows an extra move in the Shooting step
-Mission Tactics allow you to quickly replace platoon commanders
-They have a special unit which can form based on poaching teams from other units in your list, sounds interesting
-Tigers
-Extra armor on tanks

England
-Tip and Run (can run away after shooting)
-Tally Ho!
-Several rules on tank mobility/defensiveness
-Night fighting

Italy
-I have no idea what they offer

What else really makes the different nations different from each other?

 Lunar Eclipse wrote:
I just picked up Open Fire and I'm reading the rules.

Can I get some input here on the major differences between the different armies, I'm looking mostly at Late War armies.

Here's what I've got so far, would appreciate more info:


United States
-Very mobile, several rules for mobility (semi automatic rifles, tank stabilizers, etc)
-Superior communications (certain teams can act as spotters for Artillery, artillery units can combine their firepower on a single target, etc)
-Can fire man packed guns on transports

They also get platoons which really can use combined arm's, so they have anti tank guns, LMG's, etc in one platoon, also their artillery if it ranges in the first time forces the enemy to reroll saves

USSR
-Very large platoons/battlions (lower skills, but way bigger numbers)
-Kommissar's can stop fleeing platoons

Germany
-Stormtrooper rule allows an extra move in the Shooting step
-Mission Tactics allow you to quickly replace platoon commanders
-They have a special unit which can form based on poaching teams from other units in your list, sounds interesting
-Tigers
-Extra armor on tanks

Germans get some really elite infantry in LW, lots of personal anti tank weapons and 'super weapons' like the Jagdtiger,

England
-Tip and Run (can run away after shooting)
-Tally Ho!
-Several rules on tank mobility/defensiveness
-Night fighting

Tip and run really is not used in LW, nor is Tally Ho

Semi indirect fire allows them to sit at long range (over 16 inches) and if static reroll misses, their artillery unlke the US allows them to force the enemy to reroll saves when they do a repeat bombardment (and they can combine artillery too). Also the British get to reroll motivation test to fight in combat.

The other big thing about the brits is the fact the commonwealth nations are all based on them (and a couple of others) they usually loose the 'british bulldog' rule and gain others
Canadians, reroll bailed/pinned and gain mission tactics
polish, 2IC can also help platoons motivate like the IC
NZ, get basically both US And UK artillery rules but company moral is always a 5+
Indians, get war cry and mountaineers rule

United States
-Very mobile, several rules for mobility (semi automatic rifles, tank stabilizers, etc)
-Superior communications (certain teams can act as spotters for Artillery, artillery units can combine their firepower on a single target, etc)
-Can fire man packed guns on transports
-Horde faction. Opportunity to field large infantry and tank forces, small unit sizes than soviet but cheap enough to match broadly numbers.
-Shortage of armour piercing weapons make fighting heavy tanks risky.

USSR
-Very large platoons/battlions (lower skills, but way bigger numbers)
-Kommissar's can stop fleeing platoons.
-Large numbers of excellent quality vehicles at low low prices
-Soviets field quality in terms of morale and equipment technology and extreme quantity but tends to defeat itself due to awkward command control doctrines.

Germany
-Stormtrooper rule allows an extra move in the Shooting step
-Mission Tactics allow you to quickly replace platoon commanders
-They have a special unit which can form based on poaching teams from other units in your list, sounds interesting
-Tigers
-Extra armor on tanks

British and Commonwealth
-Tip and Run (can run away after shooting)
-Tally Ho!
-Several rules on tank mobility/defensiveness
-Night fighting
-Equipment varies in quality from the excellent to the substandard.
-Infantry are very hard to dislodge in a fight.
-Superior artillery rules.

Italy
-I have no idea what they offer
-An Early-Mid War faction
-Random morale varying from extreme bravery to cowardice.

What else really makes the different nations different from each other?

I would add Finns.

Elite units with a combination of rules from various factions.

Very "average" in terms of type of gear/equipment available. Much gear supplied by Germany or stolen from Russians.

Unique artilery rules that allow combining the best of russian and german artilery.

Most armies for Flames of War are balanced in that you get what you pay for in the stats, though Germans cost a little more. Poorer units are cheap, better units are expensive, just like most points based games.
However each faction has its own special rules to add flavour.

This sounds obvious but is worth mentioning because of how the Soviets are handled. Soviets are cheaper and better. Soviet tanks are as good as superior German ones but are as cheap as numerous American ones. Also infantry and artillery units offer more for less without turning the soldiers into weakened down 'goblins'. This is balanced by the faction special rules, which are mostly penalties. Everyone else gets fair point balanced armies and special rules to help them win, Soviets get superior but undercosted units and special rules to help them lose.

Soviet tanks often look great on paper but they often have special rules that limit their potential. Many soviet tanks have limited vision (-1 to hit targets out of their front arc) and Hen and Chicks (-1 to hit with main guns if they move). Soviets also lack access to smoke.

Soviet big Platoons (specifically large minimum sizes) mean that a Soviet force will have no more, or even fewer platoons than other armies and often lack small utility platoons such as recon, light/medium AT and artillery.

Italians also have Avanti (additional move if they do not shoot). Italians are also cursed with some really awful equipment, especially tanks.

I think my little 95 passat could run over that.

To put a more finer summary on it;

US: Excellent combined arms core platoons and excellent artillery and air-support. They have German Missions Tactics rules and their armor is decent as well as their mobility. Their tank-destroyer rules/doctrine really shines above the rest. Airborne is good as well as their recon.

Brit Commonwealth: decent to excellent artillery support and good skill levels from their Commonwealth nations. Decent armor and mobility plus air support. Same as US, German Mission Tactics, and depending on the nation or unit, special rules that range from counter-assault test re rolls to overall morale re-rolls and let's not forget Night Fighting. Paras are top notch. Lots to choose from here depending on what flavor you like.

Germans: Good armor forces, decent to high skill levels in most of their forces. Stormtrooper rules, Kampfgruppe and Mission Tactics make them solid as well plus their mechanized forces in half-tracks being able to use the Mounted Assault rule. They're more on the elite/high-technical side in regards to equipment and skill level for most units (not all). Solid infantry for the most part and good recon/mobility. As with the Brits, they have a good number of special rules including their Tiger Aces and Panzerkanone which makes them lethal.

Russians: Horde-type forces especially in MW. Cheaper armor, but decent, Hen & Chicks rule in v3 kind of limits their tank forces effectiveness a bit imo. Infantry forces are battalion sized and coupled with Komissar teams and the Quality of Quantity rule keeps them in the fight. Lack of smoke units unless using LW sappers. Volley Fire rule allows them to cut-loose at short ranges with certain guns/tanks. Artillery is decent. and they're real big on assault guns.

Finns: Elite infantry units in smaller company sized units. Light infantry is their workhorse along with AT-guns and captured Soviet equipment.. Typically best in defense, but they fight like elite Paras, Airbone, Paracuditisti or Falschirmjager.

Romanians: Caste-type infantry in battalion sized units, with some of them being elite in their mechanized units. Armor is some obsolescent German equipment, but they can pay a premium for more modern German (Panzer IV F2/G) armor if needed. Artillery is fair, using the French doctrine, but equipment is a bit older. Varying skill levels using the Peasant Army chart, which means random skill levels for the companies (platoons).

Hungary: More solid fighting forces in terms of skill level, but they also use German equipment for their armor forces. They have the Hussar rule which is similar to the Italians' Avanti rule. Decent infantry as well but their motorized infantry are vet while their standard infantry are trained. They're have some home-grown tanks/assault guns and can acquire Panzer III N's to Panzer IV F1/F2's. Artillery is a mix of older guns and newer ones, but decent to get the job done. LW sees them having access to Panthers and Tigers.

Italians: MW army that uses battalion sized infantry units, but company sized ones in EW. Armor is very light-to-obsolete in the MW period, but they have decent AA, mortars and Heavy AA for the North Africa region. Eastern Front is pretty much infantry horde with light AT guns and artillery. They have the 8 Million Bayonets rule which means varying skill levels for the units involved. This even applies to EW. They have good assault-pioneers and Paracudutisti (airborne) troops. Avanti allows them to keep up with their German allies in a pinch as long as they do not shoot in the shooting step; decent to get to cover or reach an objective. Lots of light tanks/tankettes that are probably only useful in supporting line infantry for assaults.

Polish: EW - decent infantry and guns; AA is good as well. Armor is very light and is good to support the infantry. French doctrine for artillery and trench warfare, allowing them to defend really well. LW sees them using modern armor with support from Brits or US units. Paras are good as well (as are most).

French: EW - has them using large infantry formations in battalion-sized units using Colonial troops or standard French Voltigeurs. Decent artillery and trench warfare rules. Their armor is good as is their armored cars/recon units. Colonial troops are good assault units. In MW you can run Free French forces (Colonial or Foreign Legion) with Brit support. Vichy use the same options but have their own domestic support. There's an option to run Sengalise troops as well.

Beyond getting into certain special briefings, like the Spanish Blue Division, etc, that's about what I can recall from the top of my head.......personally, I think MW is more balanced, but I know some like the LW period the best and that's just a matter of choice. All of the Nations have their own special rules.....

Thanks for the great input everybody.

Question - which are the most/least popular nations in LW games?

Depends on your local area I suppose; however, just from what I've seen in some tourney circles, Brit/US and Germans appears to be the most popular.

I'd say maybe Germans with a slight edge followed by an even Brit/US split. Soviets prob a close 3rd.

Least popular could probably be Romanians probably due to the challenge of dealing with mixed skill-levels within a battalion/company.

Hungarians and Finns have their own dedicated cult-following, much like Italians in Mid-War, but I'd say they may be more popular than Romanians in LW.

Here's the breakdown for the US LW national
American 31
German 40
Canadian 11
British 8
Soviet 4
Finnish 3
Scottish 1
Romanian 1
Indian 1
Hungarian 1
Polish 1

 Reaver83 wrote:

Here's the breakdown for the US LW national
American 31
German 40
Canadian 11
British 8
Soviet 4
Finnish 3
Scottish 1
Romanian 1
Indian 1
Hungarian 1
Polish 1

Wow thanks, that's very insightful. I'm surprised so few people played USSR. Are their rules that brutal?

 Lunar Eclipse wrote:

Wow thanks, that's very insightful. I'm surprised so few people played USSR. Are their rules that brutal?

The USSR rules never struck me as brutal. Rather, the wallet-strain of buying eight million T34s is what always struck me as brutal.

Likan Wolfsheim wrote:

 Lunar Eclipse wrote:

Wow thanks, that's very insightful. I'm surprised so few people played USSR. Are their rules that brutal?

The USSR rules never struck me as brutal. Rather, the wallet-strain of buying eight million T34s is what always struck me as brutal.

I've always wanted a soviet sapper battalion, just not the price tag that comes with it

Likan Wolfsheim wrote:

 Lunar Eclipse wrote:

Wow thanks, that's very insightful. I'm surprised so few people played USSR. Are their rules that brutal?

The USSR rules never struck me as brutal. Rather, the wallet-strain of buying eight million T34s is what always struck me as brutal.

This. As a USSR player, I can say that there is no such thing as Cheap Russians. Mostly because the Russian army is played as a Battalion made up of Companies, while most of the other armies are Companies made up of Platoons so we have a number advantage at our lowest man count compared to their highest man count.

I played both Imperial Guard Horde Infantry and USSR Horde Infantry (seeing a pattern to my play style ), and I stopped building those armies a good year ago. I still don't think I've made the money back.

Could someone gives the pros and cons of hungarians? I'm looking to get into the game too and noticed that they use similar equipment to Germans.

Mid-War

Pro's:

Good skilled armor and infantry forces - motorized infantry are vets while foot-infantry are trained. Armor is vet, using their own T-38G light tanks in addition to Toldi I's. German equipment is Panzer IV F1/F2 "specials".
Access to German support in the form of infantry, artillery, ATG's and air support.
Option for larger-than-normal sized infantry platoons, similar to German FJ organization and priced efficiently.

Con's:

Lack of diverse lists for the most part; options are only Armor, Motorized Infantry or Infantry.
Lack of German Mission Tactics to keep potential leaderless platoons in the fight.


The Pro's are (in Late War);

Relatively cheaper solid infantry forces with good support from German artillery, infantry and armor.
They have decent artillery of their own.
Good skill levels among armor and infantry forces; you can choose from the elite 16th, 24th, and 25th divisions or go with Volunteer divisions.
Armor is good, using a mix of their own and German equipment (Hetzers, StuG, Panzer IV, Panther and Tigers).

Special Rues for Budapest Defense Battalions using Immediate Ambush for Infantry/Gun platoons.
Huszar Rule: a version of the Italian Avanti move, allowing additional movement if you do not shoot. Good for rapid assaults or objective contesting or breaking for cover in a pinch.
Re-rolls for digging-in.


The Cons;

Lack of German Mission tactics means there is a possibility platoons can become leaderless.
No Tiger Aces skills for their Tiger tank operators/commanders. Not a loss really but it makes you work the Tigers hard to be effective in LW armor duels/battles.


In summary, I really can't find anything that's a fault with the Hungarians in MW or LW other than a lack of special rules. I believe all of their lists are solid and they surely can compete against Soviets in v3 in just about all areas. I've been tempted to run them myself.

Thanks for the breakdown Running an armour heavy Hungarian list sounds appealing.

Soviets are awful in late war but pretty good in mid. I would never run a soviet tank company in any period and especially not in late war. Apart from a few exceptions everything is overpriced crap. Also people who afford to fly all across America to play in the nationals would get t34s if they were any good.

The difference is t-34's come in groups of 10 where every other faction's tanks come in 5 at most.

In Late-War Soviets go from hordes of Fearless Conscript to hordes of Confident Trained (ie, they're the same skill/motivation as non-special Americans/Brits while still out-numbering those factions). Their rules are all about the Quality of Quantity (beyond that specific rule too)... you won't have the best tanks, but you'll have 10 of them, you won't have the best artillery (good, but not the best), but the special rules make your sheer numbers of them pretty dang great. Their heavy tanks (which don't have Hens and Chicks) have fantastic stats (the IS-2 has the front armour of a Panther, the side and top of a Tiger and better AT than both)

It's a numbers/sledgehammer army. Pin down even a 9-team platoon and they literally will not put out enough shots to turn you away in assault. Soviets don't dance around dodging blows, they hit one thing at a time, and if they do it right, that thing will drop like a rock. Do it wrong, and you won't have the numbers you need to bring you the rest of the way.

I love running infantry/artillery with them.

 Elector wrote:
The difference is t-34's come in groups of 10 where every other faction's tanks come in 5 at most.

In Late-War Soviets go from hordes of Fearless Conscript to hordes of Confident Trained (ie, they're the same skill/motivation as non-special Americans/Brits while still out-numbering those factions). Their rules are all about the Quality of Quantity (beyond that specific rule too)... you won't have the best tanks, but you'll have 10 of them, you won't have the best artillery (good, but not the best), but the special rules make your sheer numbers of them pretty dang great. Their heavy tanks (which don't have Hens and Chicks) have fantastic stats (the IS-2 has the front armour of a Panther, the side and top of a Tiger and better AT than both)

It's a numbers/sledgehammer army. Pin down even a 9-team platoon and they literally will not put out enough shots to turn you away in assault. Soviets don't dance around dodging blows, they hit one thing at a time, and if they do it right, that thing will drop like a rock. Do it wrong, and you won't have the numbers you need to bring you the rest of the way.

I love running infantry/artillery with them.

But you are forgetting the two things that screw up soviet tank armies much more than other armies with the exact same skill and motivation ratings. The Hen and chicks special rule and the fact that a ten tank strong T-34 tank platoon is as easily stopped from entering combat by defensive fire as a 3 man sherman platoon. Hen and chicks basically turns soviet tanks into machine gun boats if they move and unfortunatly the T-34s aren't costed for that.

And yes they come in big platoons but I don't understand why this is a boon. Having two platoons of 4 tanks is not worse than having one of 10 as you can threaten two objectives and defend one or attack another with two platoons.

Soviet T-34's really need to lean on their support options to be viable. Additionally, terrain makes a huge difference in order for a 10-strong tank company to bring its guns to bear.

BA-64 armored cars or any kind of recon is a must ( pretty much for most tank armies) so they can "push" ambushers away. Also, some form of artillery, possibly mortars is useful to pin enemy infantry or keep some enemy artillery on their toes.

With the V3 H&C rue, the Tankovy army is so much more about skillful maneuver, so that you can get flank-shots on enemy armor or set-up an assault. In MW, yes they can easily be pushed back if you're running FC (Red Army), but you have plenty of MG's, which do not suffer from H&C, to shoot-up the infantry and any gun teams in the way. In LW, it's not too bad as your support options are better and you're trained instead.

The army is tougher to run than in V2, but I've seen it work with skillful play.

In MW, probably the Mixed Tankovy is a bit more viable due to its options.

In LW, the Peredovoye Otryad (Forward Detachment) is decent. Although the regular Tankovy is a bit more points-efficient when compared to the Guards version.